9 ms·

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism

by ErrantX 10y ago

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering Now; I disapprove of forcing women to wear that sort of dress on religious grounds. In fact, I find it obnoxious (although, aside, Western society seems to expect women to wear makeup and look "good" at all times... so are we any better?). However, I'm not sure banning the dress is a good solution - akin to punishing the victim...

mnbcvx 10y ago
Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and as a poster below pointed out, feel naked in your new school.
- trizic 10y ago
  Perhaps the idea could be seen differently not as a ban but an enforcement of anonymity. Like its hard for me to judge you based on your username (depends on the username), but if we had profile pictures that wouldn't be the case. I don't really agree with France on this, but could the ban have positive effects by reducing prejudice by anonymity (look at this person vs. look at this muslim person) vs teaching tolerance.
  - mnbcvx 10y ago
    For most Muslim immigrants, their facial features and skin color are probably as much an indicator of their background as a head dress, not to mention things like accent that will ultimately give someone away. I really don't buy any argument for these policies. Being realistic, it was definitely a move to antagonize the Muslim population in France.
  - wahern 10y ago
    Every modern nation's conception of liberty differs. In no country does liberty mean that anything goes. And while many westerners (particularly Anglos) like to define liberty as "anything goes which doesn't negatively effect me", that only begs the question of where that line is to be drawn. In France the pithy definition of political freedom is "liberty, equality, fraternity". Equality and fraternity are qualifiers on what liberty is supposed to mean, recognizing a collective responsibility component and thus helping to articulate where the line is to be drawn for when individual liberty conflicts with the long-term requirements safeguarding political liberty. French laws don't ban Muslim dress, per se. They ban face coverings, which is only typical of some very conservative Arabic cultures. And they do so because a religious or cultural mandate that requires such dress is in direct opposition to the ideals of equality and fraternity, which are considered necessary for maintaining the liberty of the society as a whole. We can disagree with that interpretation on many levels. But it's not illogical, per se. I don't doubt that the way it's been articulated and enforced has been corrupted by anti-Muslim and anti-Arabic animus. But it is what it is and fundamentally seems consonant with French political theory. In the U.S. religious freedom is considered much more sacrosanct. In particular, Americans see safeguarding religious liberty as fundamental to political liberty; whereas I think the French notion is that safeguarding secularism is far more important. The reasons are historical and totally obvious--just reflect on what you learned about American and French political history in high school. In France the Catholic Church was one of the impediments to democracy. Whereas a large number of American colonists came here because of religious persecution abroad, and our political system evolved to protect religious denominations from the government and from each other.
- yodsanklai 10y ago
  > It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man) Is it? there are tons of topless women on French beaches. I don't know about specific laws but nobody goes topless or naked while walking in a city (in France or elsewhere). I don't see this as a great restriction on my freedom. Actually, more worrying IMHO is that if a woman were to go topless in the street, she'd get more trouble from some (religious and macho) guys than the police. > I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant Sorry, but I don't find it scandalous to ask refugee or immigrants to make minor adjustments to their lifestyle. Every society has some common value that it wants to preserve, and as a French, I want as little intrusion of religion in public life. In particular, religion has no place in public school in my opinion, and i really hope it stays this way.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - mnbcvx 10y ago
    I'm actually having trouble finding any exact law, so in the interest of accuracy, I'll admit I could be wrong about French law here. This Wikipedia article says "Chest and private parts must be covered except near bathing zones. Burqa banned." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country Another article I read mentioned that a particular city recently explicitly banned male toplessness, which seems to imply that the above statement about covering the chest only applies to women. Another Wikipedia article here states that the activist group Topfreedom has protested in France, also implying that the covering the chest only applies to women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom#France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom#France Can anyone point to the specific law? The Wikipedia article on clothing laws doesn't have a source. I was going off what I've been told by French friends, but I'd like to know conclusively.
- jazzyk 10y ago
  Not head, face.
  - mnbcvx 10y ago
    Wrong, the head dress is banned in schools. "The wearing of all conspicuous religious symbols in public schools was previously banned in 2004 by a different law" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering
    - jazzyk 10y ago
      You understand the distinction between Islamic veils/headscarves (which clearly imply religious affiliation) and clearly non-religious, headscarves worn by many style-conscious, but secular, women? Your misunderstanding may come from terminology - a headscarf need not be religious at all, and headscarves which are not religious (it is easy to tell the difference) are NOT banned.
      - mnbcvx 10y ago
        Does it clearly imply religious affiliation, or cultural affiliation? Either way, it's such a petty and arbitrary distinction and I'd guess that a Muslim girl in a French school wearing a regular head scarf would still get hassled and forced to remove it.
      - _nedR 10y ago
        The headscarf to muslims is not really a religious symbol like say a priests clothes or a nuns habit. It is a piece of clothing that is required (considered mandatory by most schools) to be worn by a woman to preserve her modesty. In that viewpoint, it is like pretty much every other piece of clothing . Are pants or tops religious symbols?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jazzyk 10y ago
Everyone take a deep breath. The ban in France is for face-covering only, and it applies to anybody (male/female). There are serious reasons for this, both cultural- and security-based. Head scarves are allowed in France, to the best of my knowledge. EDIT: The law bans "the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools" [1] So you can wear a head scarf as long as it does not imply religious affiliation. As a matter of fact, head scarves have been present in high fashion (Azzedine Alaia,etc) for a while. [1] Wikipedia: The bill passed France's national legislature and was signed into law by President Jacques Chirac on 15 March 2004 (thus the technical name is law 2004-228 of 15 March 2004) and came into effect on 2 September 2004, at the beginning of the new school year. The full title of the law is "loi no 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics" (literally "Law #2004-228 of March 15, 2004, concerning, as an application of the principle of the separation of church and state, the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools").
- gakada 10y ago
  Headscarves not tolerated either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_c...
  - jazzyk 10y ago
    Please see my edit above: you can wear a head scarf, as long as it does not imply (any) religious affiliation.
    - tremon 10y ago
      and as long as you're not in primary education.
yodsanklai 10y ago
> However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering It was widely debated. I'm still not sure what was the best thing to do. At some point, you also have to ask how far we can tolerate things in the name of religion. Just because something is of religious nature doesn't mean that it has to be accepted.
- tamana 10y ago
  If you are passing laws saying that girls are required to show their hair in school, and compromise their family moral values, as a mandatory display if secularism, you have gone to far in creating a bizarre new state religion. Just because something is preferred by a subpopulation's religion and culture, doesn't meant it is a proselytic threat to the freedom and safety of others. The French heafscarf law is populist demagoguery that threatens the integrity of the French Constitutional principles, and is near-universally condemned as bad law by legal scholars
  - yodsanklai 10y ago
    It's not really the thread for this kind of debate, but I feel compelled to reply :) > If you are passing laws saying that girls are required to show their hair in school That's not what the law is about. It bans religious signs in public schools. It's not specifically about muslims covering their hair. I can't speak for all the French, but I think it's fair to say that overall we like religion to stay in the private field. Little anecdote here. When I was in high-school (25 years ago), some American mormons offered to visit our English class to teach English. Our teacher agreed on the condition that they don't wear their uniforms, and don't mention any religious topic. They declined. Just to say that the laws we are discussing here go far beyond "populist demagoguery" or xenophobia and maybe it's misunderstanding French culture to think it is. > and is near-universally condemned as bad law by legal scholars That sounds like an argument of authority. I don't know what law scholars say but I think a country should be able to legislate on the place of religion in public schools, and the way it has been done seem pretty fair to me. When I was school, there were about 10% of north african immigrants in my classes (most of them muslims) and never the headscarf had been an issue. Back then, you actually didn't see any headscarfs in street, except maybe for older muslim ladies. I'm not sure what has changed since then but it has became commonplace (and as an atheist, I'm pretty sad about this).

by ErrantX 10y ago

mnbcvx 10y ago

Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and as a poster below pointed out, feel naked in your new school.

trizic 10y ago
Perhaps the idea could be seen differently not as a ban but an enforcement of anonymity. Like its hard for me to judge you based on your username (depends on the username), but if we had profile pictures that wouldn't be the case. I don't really agree with France on this, but could the ban have positive effects by reducing prejudice by anonymity (look at this person vs. look at this muslim person) vs teaching tolerance.
- mnbcvx 10y ago
  For most Muslim immigrants, their facial features and skin color are probably as much an indicator of their background as a head dress, not to mention things like accent that will ultimately give someone away. I really don't buy any argument for these policies. Being realistic, it was definitely a move to antagonize the Muslim population in France.
- wahern 10y ago
  Every modern nation's conception of liberty differs. In no country does liberty mean that anything goes. And while many westerners (particularly Anglos) like to define liberty as "anything goes which doesn't negatively effect me", that only begs the question of where that line is to be drawn. In France the pithy definition of political freedom is "liberty, equality, fraternity". Equality and fraternity are qualifiers on what liberty is supposed to mean, recognizing a collective responsibility component and thus helping to articulate where the line is to be drawn for when individual liberty conflicts with the long-term requirements safeguarding political liberty. French laws don't ban Muslim dress, per se. They ban face coverings, which is only typical of some very conservative Arabic cultures. And they do so because a religious or cultural mandate that requires such dress is in direct opposition to the ideals of equality and fraternity, which are considered necessary for maintaining the liberty of the society as a whole. We can disagree with that interpretation on many levels. But it's not illogical, per se. I don't doubt that the way it's been articulated and enforced has been corrupted by anti-Muslim and anti-Arabic animus. But it is what it is and fundamentally seems consonant with French political theory. In the U.S. religious freedom is considered much more sacrosanct. In particular, Americans see safeguarding religious liberty as fundamental to political liberty; whereas I think the French notion is that safeguarding secularism is far more important. The reasons are historical and totally obvious--just reflect on what you learned about American and French political history in high school. In France the Catholic Church was one of the impediments to democracy. Whereas a large number of American colonists came here because of religious persecution abroad, and our political system evolved to protect religious denominations from the government and from each other.
yodsanklai 10y ago
> It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man) Is it? there are tons of topless women on French beaches. I don't know about specific laws but nobody goes topless or naked while walking in a city (in France or elsewhere). I don't see this as a great restriction on my freedom. Actually, more worrying IMHO is that if a woman were to go topless in the street, she'd get more trouble from some (religious and macho) guys than the police. > I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant Sorry, but I don't find it scandalous to ask refugee or immigrants to make minor adjustments to their lifestyle. Every society has some common value that it wants to preserve, and as a French, I want as little intrusion of religion in public life. In particular, religion has no place in public school in my opinion, and i really hope it stays this way.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- mnbcvx 10y ago
  I'm actually having trouble finding any exact law, so in the interest of accuracy, I'll admit I could be wrong about French law here. This Wikipedia article says "Chest and private parts must be covered except near bathing zones. Burqa banned." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country Another article I read mentioned that a particular city recently explicitly banned male toplessness, which seems to imply that the above statement about covering the chest only applies to women. Another Wikipedia article here states that the activist group Topfreedom has protested in France, also implying that the covering the chest only applies to women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom#France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom#France Can anyone point to the specific law? The Wikipedia article on clothing laws doesn't have a source. I was going off what I've been told by French friends, but I'd like to know conclusively.
jazzyk 10y ago
Not head, face.
- mnbcvx 10y ago
  Wrong, the head dress is banned in schools. "The wearing of all conspicuous religious symbols in public schools was previously banned in 2004 by a different law" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering
  - jazzyk 10y ago
    You understand the distinction between Islamic veils/headscarves (which clearly imply religious affiliation) and clearly non-religious, headscarves worn by many style-conscious, but secular, women? Your misunderstanding may come from terminology - a headscarf need not be religious at all, and headscarves which are not religious (it is easy to tell the difference) are NOT banned.
    - mnbcvx 10y ago
      Does it clearly imply religious affiliation, or cultural affiliation? Either way, it's such a petty and arbitrary distinction and I'd guess that a Muslim girl in a French school wearing a regular head scarf would still get hassled and forced to remove it.
    - _nedR 10y ago
      The headscarf to muslims is not really a religious symbol like say a priests clothes or a nuns habit. It is a piece of clothing that is required (considered mandatory by most schools) to be worn by a woman to preserve her modesty. In that viewpoint, it is like pretty much every other piece of clothing . Are pants or tops religious symbols?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

jazzyk 10y ago

Everyone take a deep breath. The ban in France is for face-covering only, and it applies to anybody (male/female). There are serious reasons for this, both cultural- and security-based. Head scarves are allowed in France, to the best of my knowledge. EDIT: The law bans "the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools" [1] So you can wear a head scarf as long as it does not imply religious affiliation. As a matter of fact, head scarves have been present in high fashion (Azzedine Alaia,etc) for a while. [1] Wikipedia: The bill passed France's national legislature and was signed into law by President Jacques Chirac on 15 March 2004 (thus the technical name is law 2004-228 of 15 March 2004) and came into effect on 2 September 2004, at the beginning of the new school year. The full title of the law is "loi no 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics" (literally "Law #2004-228 of March 15, 2004, concerning, as an application of the principle of the separation of church and state, the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools").

gakada 10y ago
Headscarves not tolerated either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_c...
- jazzyk 10y ago
  Please see my edit above: you can wear a head scarf, as long as it does not imply (any) religious affiliation.
  - tremon 10y ago
    and as long as you're not in primary education.

yodsanklai 10y ago

> However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering It was widely debated. I'm still not sure what was the best thing to do. At some point, you also have to ask how far we can tolerate things in the name of religion. Just because something is of religious nature doesn't mean that it has to be accepted.

tamana 10y ago
If you are passing laws saying that girls are required to show their hair in school, and compromise their family moral values, as a mandatory display if secularism, you have gone to far in creating a bizarre new state religion. Just because something is preferred by a subpopulation's religion and culture, doesn't meant it is a proselytic threat to the freedom and safety of others. The French heafscarf law is populist demagoguery that threatens the integrity of the French Constitutional principles, and is near-universally condemned as bad law by legal scholars
- yodsanklai 10y ago
  It's not really the thread for this kind of debate, but I feel compelled to reply :) > If you are passing laws saying that girls are required to show their hair in school That's not what the law is about. It bans religious signs in public schools. It's not specifically about muslims covering their hair. I can't speak for all the French, but I think it's fair to say that overall we like religion to stay in the private field. Little anecdote here. When I was in high-school (25 years ago), some American mormons offered to visit our English class to teach English. Our teacher agreed on the condition that they don't wear their uniforms, and don't mention any religious topic. They declined. Just to say that the laws we are discussing here go far beyond "populist demagoguery" or xenophobia and maybe it's misunderstanding French culture to think it is. > and is near-universally condemned as bad law by legal scholars That sounds like an argument of authority. I don't know what law scholars say but I think a country should be able to legislate on the place of religion in public schools, and the way it has been done seem pretty fair to me. When I was school, there were about 10% of north african immigrants in my classes (most of them muslims) and never the headscarf had been an issue. Back then, you actually didn't see any headscarfs in street, except maybe for older muslim ladies. I'm not sure what has changed since then but it has became commonplace (and as an atheist, I'm pretty sad about this).