3 ms·

One of the main problems I'm seeing these days is that a lot of companies think they can solve problems that start from childhood or culture. Most blacks that

One of the main problems I'm seeing these days is that a lot of companies think they can solve problems that start from childhood or culture. Most blacks that are recent African immigrants tend to do very well. http://www.atlnightspots.com/african-immigrants-have-the-highest-academic-achievement-in-the-us/ http://www.atlnightspots.com/african-immigrants-have-the-hig... That points to some aspect (not race) of African-Americans that cause them not to excel. Is it broken families or a culture of not "acting white"? (acting white: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white) Those things needs to be dealt with on a community level, a band aid and a few initiatives by tech companies won't solve anything properly.

exolymph 10y ago
The effects of systemic racism should be considered as well.
- kmicklas 10y ago
  Exactly, that is the root cause of these so called "community issues."
- jimmywanger 10y ago
  What do you mean? Controlling for the fact that children of African immigrants do very well should eliminate systemic racism, as they have been exposed to that their whole life, and would be exposed to all the "systemic racism" their African-American cohort members would have been exposed to as well.
  - Jill_the_Pill 10y ago
    Not necessarily. It's possible, for example, that schools may have higher expectations and better supports for immigrant children. Immigrants may have economic or family educational advantages (they were the ones privileged enough to emigrate); they may reside in ethnic enclaves or white-majority neighborhoods that do not draw police suspicion and predatory economic practices; or, like the known hiring bias toward white-sounding names, human resources people may have an unconscious bias in favor of African-sounding names over recognizably African-American ones.
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      You realize that you bring up _nothing_ that is a factor of race, correct? All the points you raise are valid, but have to do with culture rather than ethnicity. Nothing you said discriminates against people with an ethnicity from Africa than an ethnicity from Northern Europe.
      - Jill_the_Pill 10y ago
        They are all aspects of institutional racism in the US; they discriminate against African-Americans, while African immigrant are somewhat shielded from their effects. So, if your argument is that what we term racism should better be called culturism or something, ok I guess so. Still is a real problem.
        jimmywanger 10y ago
        See my comment to a thread above. Basically, according to tech hiring data, they _don't_ break things down by culture, just by race. That's why it's such an important distinction. Is hiring 20 highly achieving black african immigrants who grew up in white enclaves just as desirable as hiring 20 low achieving black people who spent generations here being discriminated against? According to these statistics, both are equally good and desirable.
        Jill_the_Pill 10y ago
        Maybe we are going in circles. I perceived your original comment to place the blame on African-American culture (nonsense about "broken families" e.g.). Yes, hiring Africans into predominantly European-American companies produces one sort of diversity there, and it's a good one, but hiring African-Americans and Latino-Americans produces a different (also desirable) diversity, which does arguably more good in our traditionally less-privileged communities by getting more parents employed in good jobs and seeing real opportunities ahead for the kids in school to strive for. Even in this comment I'd debate the term "low-achieving." There are many high-achieving African-Americans, and the automatic association of race/culture with low achievement is a problem.
  - ubernostrum 10y ago
    Recent immigrants and their children will speak differently, dress differently, act differently and probably live in different places than multi-generation American black families. This creates a difference wherein the immigrant is perceived as not displaying the "bad" aspects of "black culture" (i.e., the immigrant's English is unlikely to be AAVE, which is a gigantic leg up right off the bat in terms of how they'll be perceived by white peers, and may even be considered pleasing; the immigrant will probably dress more "white", etc. etc.). Which gets right back to... you guessed it, systemic racism labeling "black culture" as an inherently bad or inferior thing.
    - jimmywanger 10y ago
      We're talking about "system racism" and "culture", which was my point in its entirety. Racism deals with race - the genetic identity you have. Everything you're talking about deals with culture. Systemic culturism might be a thing, but you have not dealt with systemic racism.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        The problem being discussed is prejudice. Whether that prejudice comes from some nebulous idea of "race" or "culture" or something else is besides the point.
        jimmywanger 10y ago
        No, that's precisely the point. The hiring data from high tech companies is not broken down by culture, but by race. They're saying that racial equality is the important bit, and if black people aren't equally represented then there's prejudice. According to that logic, it doesn't matter what culture the person has, as long as they have African ancestry. It doesn't matter if they're part of a high achieving immigrant community, or a low achieving black american community. THAT's the part that makes no sense to me.
      - kmicklas 10y ago
        As nice as etymologically transparent definitions are, that's not what racism means. (It includes the culture component.)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

exolymph 10y ago

The effects of systemic racism should be considered as well.

kmicklas 10y ago
Exactly, that is the root cause of these so called "community issues."
jimmywanger 10y ago
What do you mean? Controlling for the fact that children of African immigrants do very well should eliminate systemic racism, as they have been exposed to that their whole life, and would be exposed to all the "systemic racism" their African-American cohort members would have been exposed to as well.
- Jill_the_Pill 10y ago
  Not necessarily. It's possible, for example, that schools may have higher expectations and better supports for immigrant children. Immigrants may have economic or family educational advantages (they were the ones privileged enough to emigrate); they may reside in ethnic enclaves or white-majority neighborhoods that do not draw police suspicion and predatory economic practices; or, like the known hiring bias toward white-sounding names, human resources people may have an unconscious bias in favor of African-sounding names over recognizably African-American ones.
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    You realize that you bring up _nothing_ that is a factor of race, correct? All the points you raise are valid, but have to do with culture rather than ethnicity. Nothing you said discriminates against people with an ethnicity from Africa than an ethnicity from Northern Europe.
    - Jill_the_Pill 10y ago
      They are all aspects of institutional racism in the US; they discriminate against African-Americans, while African immigrant are somewhat shielded from their effects. So, if your argument is that what we term racism should better be called culturism or something, ok I guess so. Still is a real problem.
      - jimmywanger 10y ago
        See my comment to a thread above. Basically, according to tech hiring data, they _don't_ break things down by culture, just by race. That's why it's such an important distinction. Is hiring 20 highly achieving black african immigrants who grew up in white enclaves just as desirable as hiring 20 low achieving black people who spent generations here being discriminated against? According to these statistics, both are equally good and desirable.
        Jill_the_Pill 10y ago
        Maybe we are going in circles. I perceived your original comment to place the blame on African-American culture (nonsense about "broken families" e.g.). Yes, hiring Africans into predominantly European-American companies produces one sort of diversity there, and it's a good one, but hiring African-Americans and Latino-Americans produces a different (also desirable) diversity, which does arguably more good in our traditionally less-privileged communities by getting more parents employed in good jobs and seeing real opportunities ahead for the kids in school to strive for. Even in this comment I'd debate the term "low-achieving." There are many high-achieving African-Americans, and the automatic association of race/culture with low achievement is a problem.
- ubernostrum 10y ago
  Recent immigrants and their children will speak differently, dress differently, act differently and probably live in different places than multi-generation American black families. This creates a difference wherein the immigrant is perceived as not displaying the "bad" aspects of "black culture" (i.e., the immigrant's English is unlikely to be AAVE, which is a gigantic leg up right off the bat in terms of how they'll be perceived by white peers, and may even be considered pleasing; the immigrant will probably dress more "white", etc. etc.). Which gets right back to... you guessed it, systemic racism labeling "black culture" as an inherently bad or inferior thing.
  - jimmywanger 10y ago
    We're talking about "system racism" and "culture", which was my point in its entirety. Racism deals with race - the genetic identity you have. Everything you're talking about deals with culture. Systemic culturism might be a thing, but you have not dealt with systemic racism.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      The problem being discussed is prejudice. Whether that prejudice comes from some nebulous idea of "race" or "culture" or something else is besides the point.
      - jimmywanger 10y ago
        No, that's precisely the point. The hiring data from high tech companies is not broken down by culture, but by race. They're saying that racial equality is the important bit, and if black people aren't equally represented then there's prejudice. According to that logic, it doesn't matter what culture the person has, as long as they have African ancestry. It doesn't matter if they're part of a high achieving immigrant community, or a low achieving black american community. THAT's the part that makes no sense to me.
    - kmicklas 10y ago
      As nice as etymologically transparent definitions are, that's not what racism means. (It includes the culture component.)

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]