5 ms·

Something the author hints at is that the big discrepancy is geographic in nature, not racial. The geographic discrepancy manifests itself in not enough blacks

by JPKab 10y ago

Something the author hints at is that the big discrepancy is geographic in nature, not racial. The geographic discrepancy manifests itself in not enough blacks getting hired. Let me put it bluntly: I grew up in the rural south. I NEVER meet other programmers who have a background remotely similar to mine, ever. When was the last time you worked with a coder who grew up in a place that wasn't a wealthy suburb or a nice city? How many people who grew up in trailer parks work at Google or Apple? The author is right: not enough black folks at these companies. What is sad is that this is a symptom of the real issue, which is socioeconomic and geographic in nature, and the companies trying to do something about it are only focusing on the symptoms. This means that even companies like Apple will never fully address the underrepresented groups. America doesn't have a race problem, so much as a culture problem. Obviously culture is extremely aligned with race, but think about it this way: the geographical and socieconomic layers that are excluded by these tech companies are filled with people of all colors, and nobody gives a shit about the people that look too similar to the white folks from wealthy cities that have every advantage.

jbooth 10y ago
Given how much of the job is based on resourcefulness and 'sticktoitiveness' which wind up being completely unmeasured by the typical big-o-whiteboard-olympics.. I wonder if it wouldn't be an edge in hiring to fast-track anybody from a disadvantaged background. They've proven that they can break the mold and overcome adversity, kids from the suburbs->stanford route haven't, necessarily.
vec 10y ago
> Something the author hints at is that the big discrepancy is geographic in nature, not racial. It's not an either/or proposition; it's both/and. According to the article, Google, Facebook, and Twitter are all ~2% black. The population of Silicon valley is just shy of 8% black. The national number is about 18%. Silicon valley is an unusally white area, and the staff demographics are skewed even relative to that baseline. For what it's worth, I am originally from a small industrial town in rural Arkansas, and I am white. Getting hired in a tech firm was actually quite easy for me, given that I was willing to move away from where I grew up to an urban area with a thriving tech sector. I'd like to think that would still have been true even if I were black, but...
- tzs 10y ago
  > The population of Silicon valley is just shy of 8% black. The national number is about 18%. Silicon valley is an unusally white area [...] Unless you are counting Asians as "white", that is not correct. The nation as a whole is between 63% and 77% white (depending on whether or not "hispanic" and "white" are considered disjoint). In Silicon Valley, whites are only about 35%, and are not even the largest racial/ethnic group, having been surpassed by Asians.
- JPKab 10y ago
  I live in Arkansas. I'm in the little bubble of prosperity surrounding Bentonville. I'm moving to Denver in 2 weeks because my job is requiring me to. Some of the poorest people in the country (most of them white) surround this little bubble all through the Ozarks, extending east into Appalachia. You're from here, and you know that. Moving to an "urban area with a thriving tech sector" isn't exactly cheap. Getting into a good college is a nice precursor to that, and that is radically helped by having a decent public school system. I don't think it's a stretch to say that these are very difficult obstacles for people, no matter there color. In fact, I'll say it now: a black kid who attends school in Fairfax County, Virginia is going to have a better shot at a tech job down the road than a white kid who attends school in Ft. Smith, Arkansas. These are extremely different places, but I'm pointing this out because while race matters, waaaay too much emphasis is placed on it compared to the structural factors that impact people independent of ethnicity.
  - vec 10y ago
    So I agree with most of what you're saying. I turned a state-funded boarding school education into a scholarship to an engineering university, and I'm acutely aware of how much luck is involved in that story, and of how much would have been difficult if not impossible if my family hadn't been at least middle class to start with. We do have a very real class problem in America, exacerbated by a deep urban/rural cultural divide, and it is a disgrace how little we're talking about it. Unfortunately, we also have a very real racism problem, and I don't think it's helpful to say "the real problem is classism". The very real problems include both racism and classism. It's too hard to get into tech as a poor white man. It's too hard to get into tech as a middle class black man. For that matter, it's too hard to get into tech as a middle class white woman. And it's way, way too hard as any combination of those. In general, responding to "we have a huge racism issue" with "we actually have a huge classism issue" isn't wrong, but it isn't helpful either. It derails the conversation from a very real problem into arguing about who has it worse. And the worst part is that most of the changes that would help the racism issue would also help most of the other -isms. Blind hiring, more support for remote work, and less dependence on specific universities in hiring pipelines helps everybody. And even very targeted interventions help indirectly to the extent they erode the stereotype that only upper-middle-class 20-something white guys need apply.

by JPKab 10y ago

jbooth 10y ago

Given how much of the job is based on resourcefulness and 'sticktoitiveness' which wind up being completely unmeasured by the typical big-o-whiteboard-olympics.. I wonder if it wouldn't be an edge in hiring to fast-track anybody from a disadvantaged background. They've proven that they can break the mold and overcome adversity, kids from the suburbs->stanford route haven't, necessarily.

vec 10y ago

> Something the author hints at is that the big discrepancy is geographic in nature, not racial. It's not an either/or proposition; it's both/and. According to the article, Google, Facebook, and Twitter are all ~2% black. The population of Silicon valley is just shy of 8% black. The national number is about 18%. Silicon valley is an unusally white area, and the staff demographics are skewed even relative to that baseline. For what it's worth, I am originally from a small industrial town in rural Arkansas, and I am white. Getting hired in a tech firm was actually quite easy for me, given that I was willing to move away from where I grew up to an urban area with a thriving tech sector. I'd like to think that would still have been true even if I were black, but...

tzs 10y ago
> The population of Silicon valley is just shy of 8% black. The national number is about 18%. Silicon valley is an unusally white area [...] Unless you are counting Asians as "white", that is not correct. The nation as a whole is between 63% and 77% white (depending on whether or not "hispanic" and "white" are considered disjoint). In Silicon Valley, whites are only about 35%, and are not even the largest racial/ethnic group, having been surpassed by Asians.
JPKab 10y ago
I live in Arkansas. I'm in the little bubble of prosperity surrounding Bentonville. I'm moving to Denver in 2 weeks because my job is requiring me to. Some of the poorest people in the country (most of them white) surround this little bubble all through the Ozarks, extending east into Appalachia. You're from here, and you know that. Moving to an "urban area with a thriving tech sector" isn't exactly cheap. Getting into a good college is a nice precursor to that, and that is radically helped by having a decent public school system. I don't think it's a stretch to say that these are very difficult obstacles for people, no matter there color. In fact, I'll say it now: a black kid who attends school in Fairfax County, Virginia is going to have a better shot at a tech job down the road than a white kid who attends school in Ft. Smith, Arkansas. These are extremely different places, but I'm pointing this out because while race matters, waaaay too much emphasis is placed on it compared to the structural factors that impact people independent of ethnicity.
- vec 10y ago
  So I agree with most of what you're saying. I turned a state-funded boarding school education into a scholarship to an engineering university, and I'm acutely aware of how much luck is involved in that story, and of how much would have been difficult if not impossible if my family hadn't been at least middle class to start with. We do have a very real class problem in America, exacerbated by a deep urban/rural cultural divide, and it is a disgrace how little we're talking about it. Unfortunately, we also have a very real racism problem, and I don't think it's helpful to say "the real problem is classism". The very real problems include both racism and classism. It's too hard to get into tech as a poor white man. It's too hard to get into tech as a middle class black man. For that matter, it's too hard to get into tech as a middle class white woman. And it's way, way too hard as any combination of those. In general, responding to "we have a huge racism issue" with "we actually have a huge classism issue" isn't wrong, but it isn't helpful either. It derails the conversation from a very real problem into arguing about who has it worse. And the worst part is that most of the changes that would help the racism issue would also help most of the other -isms. Blind hiring, more support for remote work, and less dependence on specific universities in hiring pipelines helps everybody. And even very targeted interventions help indirectly to the extent they erode the stereotype that only upper-middle-class 20-something white guys need apply.