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When my brother died in 2010, I posted to that effect on Facebook. Many friends (majority of them "real life," pre-Facebook/outside of Facebook friends) gave th

When my brother died in 2010, I posted to that effect on Facebook. Many friends (majority of them "real life," pre-Facebook/outside of Facebook friends) gave their condolences. Others called me. A few messaged me, etc. You get the picture. That correspondence was, and remains, important to me. Does Facebook own it? Can they delete it if they want to? Can they block me from accessing it? The answer, at least as far as current law stands, is yes they can. I imagine the ToS that I signed up to indemnify them from any claims I may have. But should they have these rights? If people had written me snail mail condolences, I'd keep that archive for as long as I want. From where I'm standing, Facebook, Gmail, etc, are like the post office, as far communication between people is concerned. It just happens whereas the post office sells postage stamps to senders, and rents post office boxes to recipients, Gmail puts adverts in my inbox. In return, they deliver my mail, and agree to store my archive for me. That shouldn't give them unilateral rights to my stuff, any more rights than a post office or FedEx or DHL would have (Oh look, DHL is actually a post office off-shoot). Because although it is on their servers, it's my stuff, in every sense of ownership. The law currently favors them, but the law, I feel, will have to change. Even if the ToS says they own my stuff, that will have to change.

losvedir 10y ago
> the law, I feel, will have to change What is a reasonable law that won't, say, make services like Snapchat illegal (which many people seem to find useful)?
- maus42 10y ago
  Good point, but not unsolvable. I can imagine the law would require user specifically giving permission to delete the data afterwards, maybe even mandating a certain form of presenting the gist of the deal, instead of lengthy and indecipherable TOS. I don't know the legal language, but requiring a text box with a tick mark or equivalent that presents a legally mandated predefined statement designed as a short and simple (unlike most TOS and EULAs), in clear and visible text, should not be impossible. For example, "I agree that $corp may delete my data without notice and opportunity to back it up" if the $corp isn't willing to offer a TOS that grants the user those rights. Possibly another similar one about privacy.
jshevek 10y ago
Imagine how much better the world would be if a majority of people took the time to think about these issues as you have AND were also willing to simply boycott facebook until the ToS were changed. This level of personal responsibility would be much better, IMO, than falling back on the government to coerce facebook into better behavior.
- maus42 10y ago
  >how much better the world would be Unfortunately it is not. Issues like this are the reason why government and state occasionally can be useful.
krapp 10y ago
>But should they have these rights? Yes, because you gave them those rights when you agreed to their terms of service. The US Post Office makes no similar claim of ownership over the mail that i'm aware of, so the metaphor really doesn't work.
dahart 10y ago
We do have a problem because Facebook and Gmail are huge, and because people are starting to assume the convenience and size of them somehow means Facebook and Gmail should be considered public services and regulated as such. While I see the same problem you do- that we're all at risk of losing the correspondence and history that we care about, man do I think your reaction is super weird. Facebook and Gmail are private web sites, and always have been. You are mistaking them for public services, when they are not and never were public services. Your mistake in no way means that laws should change or that Facebook should be required to archive and provide you access in perpetuity. You made a choice, and if you realize now that your choice comes with implications you don't like, you should start correcting that choice yourself. You should collect and gather your digital assets out from Facebook and Gmail, and archive them yourself. Facebook is not the post office. If you want the post office, use the post office. The post office services cost you money, and Facebook's don't. The post office does not archive your correspondence at all, while Facebook does. The post office delivers physical goods, while Facebook only delivers digital goods. I am just not seeing any reasonable way to conclude that you can treat Facebook like the post office in order to suggest that Facebook be required to provide you what you wish for. Your language is so strange to me - "That shouldn't give them unilateral rights to my stuff". You gave them your stuff. If you don't want them to have it, don't give it to them. I'm completely lost as to how the laws are unfairly balanced in this situation. I'm normally in favor of all kinds of regulation, but this just seems unreasonable to me to suggest that we should have laws that require Facebook to provide you with permanent archive access. Do you want to pay for that archive access, or are you demanding that the government ensure that Facebook has to pay for it forever? The post office isn't required to keep archives for you, how how does your analogy work here?
- FeepingCreature 10y ago
  To be fair, Facebook and Google profit from this misunderstanding. I do see your point, but I don't feel they should be able to advertise themselves, effectively, as utilities and then refuse to carry the burden of that claim. If Google says you'll be able to store their email with them in perpetuity, one of two things should be true: either they should be legally treated as a utility, or they should be taken to court for false advertisement.
arnarbi 10y ago
> Can they delete it if they want to? Can they block me from accessing it? Since they are paying to store this data, and you agreed to let them do that for you, then yes they can. But it's not in some kind of escrow. They even make it easy for you to get all of it for your own storage: https://www.facebook.com/help/131112897028467/ https://www.facebook.com/help/131112897028467/ https://takeout.google.com/settings/takeout https://takeout.google.com/settings/takeout
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
gkya 10y ago
If you want Gmail to act like a post office, treat it like one: fetch the emails on your computer, keep an archive. I pop my mail (pop(keep off)->spamassassin&clamav->maildirs, via procmail) and my archive is on my computer, so whatever service I use can't do anything with it. AFAIK there are software to fetch from IMAP too. With Facebook, well, I guess you agree to them being able to delete your data at their will via the little box you tick on sign-up. And as long as you accept those terms, law won't help.
DominikD 10y ago
You can - and should - archive your FB data. There's a built-in feature for that and I periodically archive everything for the same sentimental reasons.

losvedir 10y ago

> the law, I feel, will have to change What is a reasonable law that won't, say, make services like Snapchat illegal (which many people seem to find useful)?

maus42 10y ago
Good point, but not unsolvable. I can imagine the law would require user specifically giving permission to delete the data afterwards, maybe even mandating a certain form of presenting the gist of the deal, instead of lengthy and indecipherable TOS. I don't know the legal language, but requiring a text box with a tick mark or equivalent that presents a legally mandated predefined statement designed as a short and simple (unlike most TOS and EULAs), in clear and visible text, should not be impossible. For example, "I agree that $corp may delete my data without notice and opportunity to back it up" if the $corp isn't willing to offer a TOS that grants the user those rights. Possibly another similar one about privacy.

jshevek 10y ago

Imagine how much better the world would be if a majority of people took the time to think about these issues as you have AND were also willing to simply boycott facebook until the ToS were changed. This level of personal responsibility would be much better, IMO, than falling back on the government to coerce facebook into better behavior.

maus42 10y ago
>how much better the world would be Unfortunately it is not. Issues like this are the reason why government and state occasionally can be useful.

krapp 10y ago

>But should they have these rights? Yes, because you gave them those rights when you agreed to their terms of service. The US Post Office makes no similar claim of ownership over the mail that i'm aware of, so the metaphor really doesn't work.

dahart 10y ago

We do have a problem because Facebook and Gmail are huge, and because people are starting to assume the convenience and size of them somehow means Facebook and Gmail should be considered public services and regulated as such. While I see the same problem you do- that we're all at risk of losing the correspondence and history that we care about, man do I think your reaction is super weird. Facebook and Gmail are private web sites, and always have been. You are mistaking them for public services, when they are not and never were public services. Your mistake in no way means that laws should change or that Facebook should be required to archive and provide you access in perpetuity. You made a choice, and if you realize now that your choice comes with implications you don't like, you should start correcting that choice yourself. You should collect and gather your digital assets out from Facebook and Gmail, and archive them yourself. Facebook is not the post office. If you want the post office, use the post office. The post office services cost you money, and Facebook's don't. The post office does not archive your correspondence at all, while Facebook does. The post office delivers physical goods, while Facebook only delivers digital goods. I am just not seeing any reasonable way to conclude that you can treat Facebook like the post office in order to suggest that Facebook be required to provide you what you wish for. Your language is so strange to me - "That shouldn't give them unilateral rights to my stuff". You gave them your stuff. If you don't want them to have it, don't give it to them. I'm completely lost as to how the laws are unfairly balanced in this situation. I'm normally in favor of all kinds of regulation, but this just seems unreasonable to me to suggest that we should have laws that require Facebook to provide you with permanent archive access. Do you want to pay for that archive access, or are you demanding that the government ensure that Facebook has to pay for it forever? The post office isn't required to keep archives for you, how how does your analogy work here?

FeepingCreature 10y ago
To be fair, Facebook and Google profit from this misunderstanding. I do see your point, but I don't feel they should be able to advertise themselves, effectively, as utilities and then refuse to carry the burden of that claim. If Google says you'll be able to store their email with them in perpetuity, one of two things should be true: either they should be legally treated as a utility, or they should be taken to court for false advertisement.

arnarbi 10y ago

> Can they delete it if they want to? Can they block me from accessing it? Since they are paying to store this data, and you agreed to let them do that for you, then yes they can. But it's not in some kind of escrow. They even make it easy for you to get all of it for your own storage: https://www.facebook.com/help/131112897028467/ https://www.facebook.com/help/131112897028467/ https://takeout.google.com/settings/takeout https://takeout.google.com/settings/takeout

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

gkya 10y ago

If you want Gmail to act like a post office, treat it like one: fetch the emails on your computer, keep an archive. I pop my mail (pop(keep off)->spamassassin&clamav->maildirs, via procmail) and my archive is on my computer, so whatever service I use can't do anything with it. AFAIK there are software to fetch from IMAP too. With Facebook, well, I guess you agree to them being able to delete your data at their will via the little box you tick on sign-up. And as long as you accept those terms, law won't help.

DominikD 10y ago

You can - and should - archive your FB data. There's a built-in feature for that and I periodically archive everything for the same sentimental reasons.