4 ms·

pardon the shitpost, but that is a compilation of one of the most profound and useful quotes i've ever seen. the difference between superficial achievement and

pardon the shitpost, but that is a compilation of one of the most profound and useful quotes i've ever seen. the difference between superficial achievement and real contribution is profound, and most of our systems are designed to reward and reinforce the first at the expense of the latter. "They’ve done all things, often beautiful things in a context that was already set out before them, which they had no inclination to disturb. Without being aware of it, they’ve remained prisoners of those invisible and despotic circles which delimit the universe of a certain milieu in a given era."

wrsh07 10y ago
But it's very hard to design a feedback loop with a short enough cycle to properly reward the latter. It makes me think of the line about raising children, that it's better to say, "I recognize that you worked really hard on that, it looks wonderful!" than "Good job! You're so smart!" [1] because one captures the reason why they did a good job. By calling that out, you can perhaps reinforce behavior with a longer view. [1]: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/06/the-s-word/397205/ http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/06/the-s-w...
- empath75 10y ago
  Yeah, my parents and all my teachers told me I was 'gifted' from 2nd grade, and I really feel like it held me back, overall. Yes, I picked stuff up quickly, but I was also lazy as hell, and given no real incentive to learn how to not be lazy until it was too late to turn around my disastrous grades. I have a son now, and I'm going to try to avoid calling him smart or gifted. Or at least not telling him that he's smarter than the other kids.
  - delazeur 10y ago
    I had a similar experience: that kind of reinforcement encouraged me to try to do the least work possible to get the same results as others in order to prove how gifted I was, instead of working hard to go above and beyond. It was a rude awakening when I got to the point in life when I wasn't competing against my peers to complete set tasks, but rather competing against them to provide the most valuable contributions to a research group or company. However, I also believe that this kind of explanation can be harmful because it puts the blame for my laziness on others. Even though the research supports the idea that this effect occurred, ultimately I got past it by focusing on my own agency.
- lintiness 10y ago
  i have two young kids (3 & 2). when they do something "clever", it is always the thing they've done that's clever, not them.
- sk5t 10y ago
  The stronger lesson I took away from the article on reinforcement is that praising hard work makes the child less afraid of failure and more apt to persevere. Otherwise, failing a task is a scary symptom of not being smart enough.
HillaryBriss 10y ago
Yes. This quotation from Goro Shimura sums it up, IMHO: > "Though such a competition may have its raison d'être, I think those younger people who are seriously interested in mathematics will lose nothing by ignoring it." And that's what it comes down to. Are these competitions fundamentally necessary to someone's development as a mathematician? Shimura seems to be saying something like, "Eh. Not really. If you don't like them, you don't need them."
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  I've never done these competitions but I think that a good argument for participating in them is that you might meet like-minded people.
  - maus42 10y ago
    On the other hand, if you don't like the competitions, you probably would not meet like-minded people going there (assuming other participants like them). Maybe we need alternative avenues for maths nerds to meet each other.
    - SamReidHughes 10y ago
      You certainly would. You're still talking about some very nerdy people.
Klockan 10y ago
> most of our systems are designed to reward and reinforce the superficial achievement at the expense of the real contribution. No one cares about your competition results after you start publishing papers, so not really. So if you publish shit papers it doesn't matter how well you did on competitions, you will never get a good job in academia (or anywhere else for that matter unless you learn a useful skill like programming).
stuxnet79 10y ago
I find the articles on LW to be generally of high quality (setting aside the HN bias against Eliezer Yudkowsky).
- pwdisswordfish 10y ago
  > HN bias against Eliezer Yudkowsky Excuse me?
  - stuxnet79 10y ago
    Eliezer is one of LW's more controversial writers. After the Roko's Basilisk fiasco erupted in LW, it's been pretty hard to bring his name up in HN without people posting scathing critiques and attacks.
andyidsinga 10y ago
yep. the "..no inclination to disturb" part reminds me of this NPR piece and how admiral mike mullen hired the lead doctor ( http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/10/481568316/how-a-team-of-elite-doctors-changed-the-military-s-stance-on-brain-trauma http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/10/48156831... ): [snip snip] It was 2008 and Army surgeon Christian Macedonia had been told there was a high-level opening for a doctor who wanted to change the military's approach to battlefield brain injuries. When Macedonia arrived for the interview, he found himself face to face with Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. "And he looks at me and he goes, 'Who are you and what are you doing in my office?' " Macedonia says. Macedonia explained he was there about the job. Mullen replied that he had decided he didn't need a doctor on his staff. "And I said, 'Sir, I'm going to disagree with you,' " Macedonia recalls. Macedonia, a lieutenant colonel, told the admiral that if he really wanted to do something about brain injuries, he did need a doctor. What's more, he needed one with combat experience, strong scientific credentials and a high-level security clearance. "I said, 'Sir, you really only have one person and that's me.' " Mullen smiled. He had been looking for someone he might have to rein in, but would never have to push. "And Macedonia fit that model for me perfectly," he says. "He's very outspoken, very straightforward. We talk about out-of-the-box thinkers; he just lives outside the box."
leoc 10y ago
To call it superficial achievement is too strong: there's a whole lot of hard, vital work in Kuhnian 'normal science' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_science .
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

wrsh07 10y ago

But it's very hard to design a feedback loop with a short enough cycle to properly reward the latter. It makes me think of the line about raising children, that it's better to say, "I recognize that you worked really hard on that, it looks wonderful!" than "Good job! You're so smart!" [1] because one captures the reason why they did a good job. By calling that out, you can perhaps reinforce behavior with a longer view. [1]: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/06/the-s-word/397205/ http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/06/the-s-w...

empath75 10y ago
Yeah, my parents and all my teachers told me I was 'gifted' from 2nd grade, and I really feel like it held me back, overall. Yes, I picked stuff up quickly, but I was also lazy as hell, and given no real incentive to learn how to not be lazy until it was too late to turn around my disastrous grades. I have a son now, and I'm going to try to avoid calling him smart or gifted. Or at least not telling him that he's smarter than the other kids.
- delazeur 10y ago
  I had a similar experience: that kind of reinforcement encouraged me to try to do the least work possible to get the same results as others in order to prove how gifted I was, instead of working hard to go above and beyond. It was a rude awakening when I got to the point in life when I wasn't competing against my peers to complete set tasks, but rather competing against them to provide the most valuable contributions to a research group or company. However, I also believe that this kind of explanation can be harmful because it puts the blame for my laziness on others. Even though the research supports the idea that this effect occurred, ultimately I got past it by focusing on my own agency.
lintiness 10y ago
i have two young kids (3 & 2). when they do something "clever", it is always the thing they've done that's clever, not them.
sk5t 10y ago
The stronger lesson I took away from the article on reinforcement is that praising hard work makes the child less afraid of failure and more apt to persevere. Otherwise, failing a task is a scary symptom of not being smart enough.

HillaryBriss 10y ago

Yes. This quotation from Goro Shimura sums it up, IMHO: > "Though such a competition may have its raison d'être, I think those younger people who are seriously interested in mathematics will lose nothing by ignoring it." And that's what it comes down to. Are these competitions fundamentally necessary to someone's development as a mathematician? Shimura seems to be saying something like, "Eh. Not really. If you don't like them, you don't need them."

adamnemecek 10y ago
I've never done these competitions but I think that a good argument for participating in them is that you might meet like-minded people.
- maus42 10y ago
  On the other hand, if you don't like the competitions, you probably would not meet like-minded people going there (assuming other participants like them). Maybe we need alternative avenues for maths nerds to meet each other.
  - SamReidHughes 10y ago
    You certainly would. You're still talking about some very nerdy people.

Klockan 10y ago

> most of our systems are designed to reward and reinforce the superficial achievement at the expense of the real contribution. No one cares about your competition results after you start publishing papers, so not really. So if you publish shit papers it doesn't matter how well you did on competitions, you will never get a good job in academia (or anywhere else for that matter unless you learn a useful skill like programming).

stuxnet79 10y ago

I find the articles on LW to be generally of high quality (setting aside the HN bias against Eliezer Yudkowsky).

pwdisswordfish 10y ago
> HN bias against Eliezer Yudkowsky Excuse me?
- stuxnet79 10y ago
  Eliezer is one of LW's more controversial writers. After the Roko's Basilisk fiasco erupted in LW, it's been pretty hard to bring his name up in HN without people posting scathing critiques and attacks.

andyidsinga 10y ago

yep. the "..no inclination to disturb" part reminds me of this NPR piece and how admiral mike mullen hired the lead doctor ( http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/10/481568316/how-a-team-of-elite-doctors-changed-the-military-s-stance-on-brain-trauma http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/10/48156831... ): [snip snip] It was 2008 and Army surgeon Christian Macedonia had been told there was a high-level opening for a doctor who wanted to change the military's approach to battlefield brain injuries. When Macedonia arrived for the interview, he found himself face to face with Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. "And he looks at me and he goes, 'Who are you and what are you doing in my office?' " Macedonia says. Macedonia explained he was there about the job. Mullen replied that he had decided he didn't need a doctor on his staff. "And I said, 'Sir, I'm going to disagree with you,' " Macedonia recalls. Macedonia, a lieutenant colonel, told the admiral that if he really wanted to do something about brain injuries, he did need a doctor. What's more, he needed one with combat experience, strong scientific credentials and a high-level security clearance. "I said, 'Sir, you really only have one person and that's me.' " Mullen smiled. He had been looking for someone he might have to rein in, but would never have to push. "And Macedonia fit that model for me perfectly," he says. "He's very outspoken, very straightforward. We talk about out-of-the-box thinkers; he just lives outside the box."

leoc 10y ago

To call it superficial achievement is too strong: there's a whole lot of hard, vital work in Kuhnian 'normal science' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_science .

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]