6 ms·

Where Have All the Entrepreneurs Gone in Japan?

23 points by quant18 17y ago

adelevie 17y ago
patio11 seems to be doing ok.
- patio11 17y ago
  Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies. 1) I'm fortunate to be in an industry where I can get by with zero employees, which is exactly how many educated people in my town would be willing to work for a one-person company that didn't have major corporate backing. 2) I may be forced out of my current apartment after leaving the day job, on the theory that I present unnecessary risk to the landlord of nonpayment of my ($450 a month) rent, since we all know how dangerous small businesses are. (I haven't discussed this with the landlord yet. I think I should be able to finesse this, but I'm a very, very quirky guy by definition because I come from the perspective that this is something that I can negotiate with the landlord rather than a condition he'll impose that I'll just have to accept. Social acceptance doesn't stop at landlords and bank officers, either. For example, take prospective in-laws. You want to marry your daughter off to a nice young salaryman or a post office worker: he'll give her and your grandchildren stability. You don't want to marry your daughter off to an entrepreneur: one bad quarter and your grandkids won't be able to afford cram school! Without casting any aspersions on the motivations of parents of young ladies I may have dated, suffice it to say that for at least some people "salaryman" is such a good quality it trumps obvious negatives like "he's, ahem, well... he spent a lot of time overseas." 3) Have you noticed how I use the world's most efficient distribution channel, the Internet? Japan lags the US -- by quite a bit -- in the "ads -> web page -> purchase consummated online" space. It looks like America in 1996 in a lot of ways -- I have software engineers at my company ask, in seriousness, "But how do people pay you when they get your software?" "I take credit cards." "PEOPLE TELL YOU THEIR CREDIT CARD NUMBER!?" Oh, the entire Japanese payments infrastructure is optimized around Big Freaking Enterprises rather than small businesses. You know how painful it is to get a merchant account with no corporate history? Think that "about that painful, cubed" for taking non-cash payments in Japan. 4) I am sharply limited in what I can say of the Japanese government's entrepreneurial promotion activities having once been employed by a sub-branch of them (prefectural technology incubator). Here's a general statement, make of it what you will: the government giveth and the government taketh away. 5) Hypothetically assuming I were Japanese, my resume would read DAMAGED GOODS right now, because I had the brass ring (salaryman employment at a good company) and I let it go. (Foreigners interact a little... quirkily... with a lot of Japanese social norms. This is one of them.) Let me try putting it in American terms: how attractive would YC be if it were widely known that Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and almost every other company worth working for considered anyone who either a) did not secure employment at graduation or b) has ever left a company as the moral equivalent of a felon?
  - sailormoon 17y ago
    Good points. There's another relevant one - in Japan, parents are liable if their child defaults on a debt. How much risk would you be will to take if you knew your parents might lose their house if you failed?
    - 9oliYQjP 17y ago
      Is the parent liable for as long as the child is alive (e.g., what happens when the child is well into adulthood)?
      - patio11 17y ago
        You know how you're supposed to return your rental modem by a certain date to avoid paying an extra fee? The person who previously rented my last apartment did not get her's returned by the date, so she owed the ISP $100. She also left the country prior to paying it. Lo and behold, when I tried to get coverage, they discovered the bill and asked me to pay it. "I'm sorry, I think you have a misunderstanding. I am not this young Swedish lady." "Are you related to her? Is she your wife, girlfriend, etc?" "No." "Quite the coincidence that two foreigners would end up renting the same apartment back to back." "We're translators. Her contract is up, I'm replacing her, it is my employer's apartment." "Oh. So that makes you coworkers?" "Well, in a manner of speaking." "You should pay to avoid causing embarrassment for your employer." This is one of those times when my American brain goes "Oh hellllllllllllllll no" and my Japanese brain goes "Oh effity, you're right, that is what I am expected to do in this situation." I paid. If your adult child defaults on a loan, and someone knocks on your door (and there may be an actual physical knock and likely as not the person who is knocking is a yakuza enforcer, even if your adult child was in debt to an arm of a major publicly traded corporation), you pay. If your drunken useless excuse of a son has an automobile accident, you show up to the hospital several times with flowers and once with a discrete envelope with a generous amount of money to convey the depth of your sorrow for the lapse.
        pw 17y ago
        Does the envelope full of money go to your useless excuse of a son? And what is the parent's lapse in such a situation? Interesting, baffling stuff. Thanks for sharing.
TorKlingberg 17y ago
This is a very interesting topic, but the linked article does not add much. It can be shortened to one sentence: Japanese are conformists, and therefor unlikely to be entrepreneurs. While certainly part of the problem, Japan used to be far more conformist, and companies like Sony and Nintendo still got started. Many of the companies, such as Hitachi, Toshiba and Panasonic were actually founded in the early 1900s, and later turned into hi-tech electronics companies when the opportunity appeared. One issue is that most successful startups in the past two decades have been related to computer software, while Japan's strength has rather been electronic appliances. Perhaps Japan needs to find a path of entrepreneurship that actually appeals to Japanese in their 20s and 30s, rather than desperately try to copy the valley? My interpretation of Japanese history is that the country is very resistant to change, but when it does change, it can happen very quickly and in surprising ways.
- patio11 17y ago
  On the subject of appealing models for entrepreneurship: see my other post on this thread for why the typical well-prepared middle class person doesn't do it. You have to be a wee bit broken. Personally I wouldn't touch iPhone development with a ten-foot pole, but there is an entire floor at my local technology incubator related to it, and my town has several iPhone millionaires. This is one of the "overnight success in ten years" stories: my town has had a technology incubator (previous employer of mine) and an artsy-fartsy "MIT Media Lab"-type academic institution which, for the last decade, has soaked up government subsidies and produced a lot of quirky tortured, brooding artists' takes on the intersection of music and technology. Fast forward to a wee bit ago: it turns out that tortured brooding artists who sweat music and visual design are Kinda Popular Among iPhone Owners. Success breeds success, too -- the technology incubator jumped on the gravy train and there are coffees held every week where folks come to talk iPhone shop. Now if only we can get them to start doing B2C/B2SB SaaS...
  - listic 17y ago
    Why exactly wouldn't you touch iPhone development with a ten-foot pole? Do you dislike Apple Inc., or don't trust your ability to design mobile apps that are worth paying for, or what?
csomar 17y ago
It's all about the education. Internet start-up are now cheap to start. So I think most students/developers in Japan can do it. There are two factors that can affect it: 1) education and 2) the network. When you have a network like the Bay Area, this will encourage, enthusiast new young students to become entrepreneurs and start their venture. If they are successful the money and funding will come.
jcl 17y ago
This article reminded me of a bit in an article that was on HN a couple weeks ago: Starbucks evolved from a small chain of cafes to a huge one by consistently introducing new products, constantly pushing the envelope. Right? So what the hell? [Chokokuro Cafe] just immediately changed their name to reflect the name of the first product that brought them moderate success. A Japanese friend who works in marketing told me this is the "Japanese resolve." A company sees its fate and resigns itself to it. I think it sounds more like someone just giving up and settling for what they have. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1173679 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1173679
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
jbm 17y ago
Anyone who talks about Entrepeneurship in Japan and doesn't talk about the housing situation & concentration of industry in Tokyo is following fancy rather than reality. When you are unable to rent anything other than the oldest (most undesirable) places without corporate approval, you are not likely to start your own business. When all business deals are done in the most expensive part of the country, you and your sales staff are not likely to have experience dealing with problems that average people are going to deal with.
ahi 17y ago
First line: "For a nation that once boasted the likes of Sony, Toyota and Mitsubishi as its entrepreneurial heralds" Well that's problem number 1, founding years: 1946, 1926/1937, and 1870.

23 points by quant18 17y ago

adelevie 17y ago

patio11 seems to be doing ok.

patio11 17y ago
Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies. 1) I'm fortunate to be in an industry where I can get by with zero employees, which is exactly how many educated people in my town would be willing to work for a one-person company that didn't have major corporate backing. 2) I may be forced out of my current apartment after leaving the day job, on the theory that I present unnecessary risk to the landlord of nonpayment of my ($450 a month) rent, since we all know how dangerous small businesses are. (I haven't discussed this with the landlord yet. I think I should be able to finesse this, but I'm a very, very quirky guy by definition because I come from the perspective that this is something that I can negotiate with the landlord rather than a condition he'll impose that I'll just have to accept. Social acceptance doesn't stop at landlords and bank officers, either. For example, take prospective in-laws. You want to marry your daughter off to a nice young salaryman or a post office worker: he'll give her and your grandchildren stability. You don't want to marry your daughter off to an entrepreneur: one bad quarter and your grandkids won't be able to afford cram school! Without casting any aspersions on the motivations of parents of young ladies I may have dated, suffice it to say that for at least some people "salaryman" is such a good quality it trumps obvious negatives like "he's, ahem, well... he spent a lot of time overseas." 3) Have you noticed how I use the world's most efficient distribution channel, the Internet? Japan lags the US -- by quite a bit -- in the "ads -> web page -> purchase consummated online" space. It looks like America in 1996 in a lot of ways -- I have software engineers at my company ask, in seriousness, "But how do people pay you when they get your software?" "I take credit cards." "PEOPLE TELL YOU THEIR CREDIT CARD NUMBER!?" Oh, the entire Japanese payments infrastructure is optimized around Big Freaking Enterprises rather than small businesses. You know how painful it is to get a merchant account with no corporate history? Think that "about that painful, cubed" for taking non-cash payments in Japan. 4) I am sharply limited in what I can say of the Japanese government's entrepreneurial promotion activities having once been employed by a sub-branch of them (prefectural technology incubator). Here's a general statement, make of it what you will: the government giveth and the government taketh away. 5) Hypothetically assuming I were Japanese, my resume would read DAMAGED GOODS right now, because I had the brass ring (salaryman employment at a good company) and I let it go. (Foreigners interact a little... quirkily... with a lot of Japanese social norms. This is one of them.) Let me try putting it in American terms: how attractive would YC be if it were widely known that Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and almost every other company worth working for considered anyone who either a) did not secure employment at graduation or b) has ever left a company as the moral equivalent of a felon?
- sailormoon 17y ago
  Good points. There's another relevant one - in Japan, parents are liable if their child defaults on a debt. How much risk would you be will to take if you knew your parents might lose their house if you failed?
  - 9oliYQjP 17y ago
    Is the parent liable for as long as the child is alive (e.g., what happens when the child is well into adulthood)?
    - patio11 17y ago
      You know how you're supposed to return your rental modem by a certain date to avoid paying an extra fee? The person who previously rented my last apartment did not get her's returned by the date, so she owed the ISP $100. She also left the country prior to paying it. Lo and behold, when I tried to get coverage, they discovered the bill and asked me to pay it. "I'm sorry, I think you have a misunderstanding. I am not this young Swedish lady." "Are you related to her? Is she your wife, girlfriend, etc?" "No." "Quite the coincidence that two foreigners would end up renting the same apartment back to back." "We're translators. Her contract is up, I'm replacing her, it is my employer's apartment." "Oh. So that makes you coworkers?" "Well, in a manner of speaking." "You should pay to avoid causing embarrassment for your employer." This is one of those times when my American brain goes "Oh hellllllllllllllll no" and my Japanese brain goes "Oh effity, you're right, that is what I am expected to do in this situation." I paid. If your adult child defaults on a loan, and someone knocks on your door (and there may be an actual physical knock and likely as not the person who is knocking is a yakuza enforcer, even if your adult child was in debt to an arm of a major publicly traded corporation), you pay. If your drunken useless excuse of a son has an automobile accident, you show up to the hospital several times with flowers and once with a discrete envelope with a generous amount of money to convey the depth of your sorrow for the lapse.
      - pw 17y ago
        Does the envelope full of money go to your useless excuse of a son? And what is the parent's lapse in such a situation? Interesting, baffling stuff. Thanks for sharing.

TorKlingberg 17y ago

This is a very interesting topic, but the linked article does not add much. It can be shortened to one sentence: Japanese are conformists, and therefor unlikely to be entrepreneurs. While certainly part of the problem, Japan used to be far more conformist, and companies like Sony and Nintendo still got started. Many of the companies, such as Hitachi, Toshiba and Panasonic were actually founded in the early 1900s, and later turned into hi-tech electronics companies when the opportunity appeared. One issue is that most successful startups in the past two decades have been related to computer software, while Japan's strength has rather been electronic appliances. Perhaps Japan needs to find a path of entrepreneurship that actually appeals to Japanese in their 20s and 30s, rather than desperately try to copy the valley? My interpretation of Japanese history is that the country is very resistant to change, but when it does change, it can happen very quickly and in surprising ways.

patio11 17y ago
On the subject of appealing models for entrepreneurship: see my other post on this thread for why the typical well-prepared middle class person doesn't do it. You have to be a wee bit broken. Personally I wouldn't touch iPhone development with a ten-foot pole, but there is an entire floor at my local technology incubator related to it, and my town has several iPhone millionaires. This is one of the "overnight success in ten years" stories: my town has had a technology incubator (previous employer of mine) and an artsy-fartsy "MIT Media Lab"-type academic institution which, for the last decade, has soaked up government subsidies and produced a lot of quirky tortured, brooding artists' takes on the intersection of music and technology. Fast forward to a wee bit ago: it turns out that tortured brooding artists who sweat music and visual design are Kinda Popular Among iPhone Owners. Success breeds success, too -- the technology incubator jumped on the gravy train and there are coffees held every week where folks come to talk iPhone shop. Now if only we can get them to start doing B2C/B2SB SaaS...
- listic 17y ago
  Why exactly wouldn't you touch iPhone development with a ten-foot pole? Do you dislike Apple Inc., or don't trust your ability to design mobile apps that are worth paying for, or what?

csomar 17y ago

It's all about the education. Internet start-up are now cheap to start. So I think most students/developers in Japan can do it. There are two factors that can affect it: 1) education and 2) the network. When you have a network like the Bay Area, this will encourage, enthusiast new young students to become entrepreneurs and start their venture. If they are successful the money and funding will come.

jcl 17y ago

This article reminded me of a bit in an article that was on HN a couple weeks ago: Starbucks evolved from a small chain of cafes to a huge one by consistently introducing new products, constantly pushing the envelope. Right? So what the hell? [Chokokuro Cafe] just immediately changed their name to reflect the name of the first product that brought them moderate success. A Japanese friend who works in marketing told me this is the "Japanese resolve." A company sees its fate and resigns itself to it. I think it sounds more like someone just giving up and settling for what they have. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1173679 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1173679

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

jbm 17y ago

Anyone who talks about Entrepeneurship in Japan and doesn't talk about the housing situation & concentration of industry in Tokyo is following fancy rather than reality. When you are unable to rent anything other than the oldest (most undesirable) places without corporate approval, you are not likely to start your own business. When all business deals are done in the most expensive part of the country, you and your sales staff are not likely to have experience dealing with problems that average people are going to deal with.

ahi 17y ago

First line: "For a nation that once boasted the likes of Sony, Toyota and Mitsubishi as its entrepreneurial heralds" Well that's problem number 1, founding years: 1946, 1926/1937, and 1870.