6 ms·

Social services don't pay enough.

overlordalex 10y ago
I haven't watched the video, but it would more likely be things like already having a basic grasp of English, being more familiar with the culture, etc, that would make integration easier.
curiousgal 10y ago
You'll probably get downvoted but you are correct. As an Arab it sickens me how these "refugees" are choosing what country to stay in despite the fact they say they escaped war and torture. It saddens me how they are giving us, potential future immigrants with degrees and a desire to be functional parts of society, more bad rep.
- widforss 10y ago
  As a refugee one is looking for a better life per definition. Surely the primary goal is to get away from war or threats of violence and death, but if you were starting over, wouldn't you want to start with the best possible odds?
  - curiousgal 10y ago
    The worst of those odds still beats living in Syria by a long mile believe me. For this particular guy, going for the "best possible odds" definitely doesn't justify the risk he took. In a nutshell, beggars can't be choosers.
    - vidarh 10y ago
      Of course beggars can be choosers. What that statement generally means is that beggars can't generally afford to turn down charity, hoping for others to give something better. But in this case this is not what we are talking about, but a situation where someone has to decide which country they will try to apply for asylum in, amongst multiple possible options. In that case, they most definitively can choose to some extent, even though the alternatives may have different perceived risk profiles. And as with everything else, of course some people will choose badly.
      - PeterisP 10y ago
        But these aren't simply "multiple possible options" that differ only in the final country. One option, getting asylum as soon as you can, is your right, and the other option - crossing the border with forged documents to get asylum elsewhere - is a crime. Yes, you may prefer A to B - but if one of them is permitted and the other is not, then there is a big ethical difference, and simply choosing whatever benefits you most is not appropriate.
    - jamespo 10y ago
      It would seem they can in this case, maybe you don't want them to.
      - curiousgal 10y ago
        Beggars can't be choosers. Person A can choose. Ergo, Person A is not a beggar. Of course they can choose, but they have to stop playing the "refugee" card.
  - charlesdm 10y ago
    Absolutely. Given he speaks excellent english, the UK is pretty much the only logical choice.
    - Tehnix 10y ago
      Except for the fact that you can easily get by with english in most european countries.
      - zorked 10y ago
        If you are a tourist sure. If you hope to get a job, especially if your occupation isn't in high demand, then no.
      - socialist_coder 10y ago
        Yeah, this is a huge misconception. You pretty much need to be able to learn the language to successfully live in a country long term. Even if you can find a job in English (which is possible, things like startups or video game developers are sometimes in English), you will need the local language to talk to shop keepers, repair men, salespeople, any government worker, etc. Basically all the day to day bullshit errands you need to do are only doable in the local language. Nordic countries are probably OK with English only since a huge % of the population speaks English. Everywhere else though, no chance. The English speaking % is far too low.
        Tehnix 10y ago
        >Even if you can find a job in English (which is possible, things like startups or video game developers are sometimes in English), you will need the local language to talk to shop keepers, repair men, salespeople, any government worker, etc. Basically all the day to day bullshit errands you need to do are only doable in the local language. In Nordic countries at least, that is indeed not a problem. Literally everybody speaks english at some level, and the whole especially in the larger cities you can often end in shops or restaurants where the people that work there only speak english.
      - 10y ago
- patates 10y ago
  When uneducated immigrants seek social services, I don't look at them in a negative light. Dismissing them just like that, however, comes to me as too elitist.
- peteretep 10y ago
  > it sickens me how these "refugees" are choosing what > country to stay in despite the fact they say they > escaped war and torture Having escaped war and torture, why wouldn't you then want to maximize your chances of a successful rest of life?
  - tibiapejagala 10y ago
    Because the law says you can't do that. Well, you might not agree with that certain rule, but note that many do not agree that any form of taxation is fair. Maybe they just want to maximize their chances of a successful rest of life?
    - peteretep 10y ago
      The law says you can't do what, exactly?
- obj-g 10y ago
  For me, the disgusting thing was when the large amounts of immigrants were coming in all together and they were complaining about being in Denmark or wherever. This guy, I mean, in this situation, I guess it's wiser for him to choose -- but the people in the first situation should have just been grateful, not complaining that they don't want to be here in X. The way they expressed it made them come off really poorly, in my opinion.
- danso 10y ago
  I don't agree with breaking the laws of a host country when coming in as a refugee, but it's important to realize that many refugees had normal lives and were functional parts of their society before war befell them. They aren't just the dregs of society, looking for the next host to scam and rummage before moving on, though your use of "refugees" in scare quotes seems to imply that you don't see them as real people.
  - curiousgal 10y ago
    I only used "refugees" to refer to the dregs of society you mentioned, not the actual refugees.
- cabalamat 10y ago
  > it sickens me how these "refugees" are choosing what country to stay in Why is it sickening? Surely it makes sense for any person to choose the best option of those open to them?
  - curiousgal 10y ago
    That is precisely the point. Some options are not open to them. Something about having to go through smugglers and secretly cross borders gives that out.
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  > It saddens me how they are giving us, potential future immigrants with degrees and a desire to be functional parts of society, more bad rep. Does having a degree make you a better person or a more functional part of society? Does not having a degree bring bad rep? And. Why do you think these people don't have degrees and can't be functional members of society? Do you think they're stupid because their country was at war? or are they stupid because they have no means to just catch a plane and get a visa? Your comment is extremely unfortunate.
  - DominikR 10y ago
    > Does having a degree make you a better person or a more functional part of society? I think it would be safe to say that in case of the parent commenter this is true. It seems obvious that he/she is educated and actually wants to be a part of society.
    - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
      Nothing of that makes you a better person. This whole thread is fucked up and I'm totally losing faith in humanity.
      - DominikR 10y ago
        Who cares what you believe in?
        NetStrikeForce 10y ago
        It must be shit to be you :-)
        DominikR 10y ago
        What kind of reply did you expect with this insult? ;-) You can either argue with me based on facts or at least come up with some thoughtful insights but not with "I'm loosing faith in humanity".
- magic_beans 10y ago
  Are you serious? Do you understand what the situation is in Syria? Why do you deserve to be in a country any more than a refugee? What exactly does your "degree" do to contribute to "functional" society any more than a refugee's job?
  - curiousgal 10y ago
    I never said I deserve to be in a country more than they do but when someone illegally enters a country and accidents start to happen. Citizens of that country can't help but question immigrants in general and that's all I've said. I used "refugees" intentionally to refer only to immigrants with solely economic motives not all refugees.
gutnor 10y ago
Is that true though ? It seems to be a recurrent theme, both in the press talking about benefit tourism in the UK and from apparently the believes of the immigrant like those desperately trying to cross the Channel tunnel at Calais. However, I'm a European living in the UK. About all areas I have looked seem to pay less or way less than France, Belgium or northern countries. For example, unemployment benefits are a fraction of the one in France. State pension is a joke. As soon as you start earning an average salary, child/housing benefit are pretty much inexistent, especially considering that stuff like nurseries cost 3 to 4 times more than equivalent private nurseries in France or Belgium. Public school do not offer facilities for children outside hours and start later and close earlier than on the continent, meaning you need to "go private" for that too while it is free in both France and Belgium. Your workplace rights are laughable: after 8 years my wife would get the same redundancy package than a new starter in the same company in France. The list goes on and on. What exactly is so amazing about the UK benefits that is worth the trouble compared to staying in France ? The real stuff that the UK has going for it is that you pay less tax, there are more work opportunities and in big cities, there is less employment discrimination. But that means that immigrant come to work not as benefit leeches as they are picture in the news.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- lotsofcows 10y ago
  This idea that paying less tax is a good thing boggles the mind. Do you think tax payer money is just burnt or something? Paying taxes provide services that maintain the sensible level of social movement and pay differential that has been demonstrated to advance entire societies. Why do so many people want to be the richest person in a shit-hole?
  - mindcrime 10y ago
    Do you think tax payer money is just burnt or something? No, some small percentage of it is used for "social good" and the rest is wasted or funneled to well connected / powerful political insiders and their cronies.
vidarh 10y ago
If it's social services you are after, the UK should be far down the list of places in the EEA to go to. Benefits payments here are laughable compared to large parts of Europe.

I haven't watched the video, but it would more likely be things like already having a basic grasp of English, being more familiar with the culture, etc, that would make integration easier.

curiousgal 10y ago

You'll probably get downvoted but you are correct. As an Arab it sickens me how these "refugees" are choosing what country to stay in despite the fact they say they escaped war and torture. It saddens me how they are giving us, potential future immigrants with degrees and a desire to be functional parts of society, more bad rep.

widforss 10y ago
As a refugee one is looking for a better life per definition. Surely the primary goal is to get away from war or threats of violence and death, but if you were starting over, wouldn't you want to start with the best possible odds?
- curiousgal 10y ago
  The worst of those odds still beats living in Syria by a long mile believe me. For this particular guy, going for the "best possible odds" definitely doesn't justify the risk he took. In a nutshell, beggars can't be choosers.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    Of course beggars can be choosers. What that statement generally means is that beggars can't generally afford to turn down charity, hoping for others to give something better. But in this case this is not what we are talking about, but a situation where someone has to decide which country they will try to apply for asylum in, amongst multiple possible options. In that case, they most definitively can choose to some extent, even though the alternatives may have different perceived risk profiles. And as with everything else, of course some people will choose badly.
    - PeterisP 10y ago
      But these aren't simply "multiple possible options" that differ only in the final country. One option, getting asylum as soon as you can, is your right, and the other option - crossing the border with forged documents to get asylum elsewhere - is a crime. Yes, you may prefer A to B - but if one of them is permitted and the other is not, then there is a big ethical difference, and simply choosing whatever benefits you most is not appropriate.
  - jamespo 10y ago
    It would seem they can in this case, maybe you don't want them to.
    - curiousgal 10y ago
      Beggars can't be choosers. Person A can choose. Ergo, Person A is not a beggar. Of course they can choose, but they have to stop playing the "refugee" card.
- charlesdm 10y ago
  Absolutely. Given he speaks excellent english, the UK is pretty much the only logical choice.
  - Tehnix 10y ago
    Except for the fact that you can easily get by with english in most european countries.
    - zorked 10y ago
      If you are a tourist sure. If you hope to get a job, especially if your occupation isn't in high demand, then no.
    - socialist_coder 10y ago
      Yeah, this is a huge misconception. You pretty much need to be able to learn the language to successfully live in a country long term. Even if you can find a job in English (which is possible, things like startups or video game developers are sometimes in English), you will need the local language to talk to shop keepers, repair men, salespeople, any government worker, etc. Basically all the day to day bullshit errands you need to do are only doable in the local language. Nordic countries are probably OK with English only since a huge % of the population speaks English. Everywhere else though, no chance. The English speaking % is far too low.
      - Tehnix 10y ago
        >Even if you can find a job in English (which is possible, things like startups or video game developers are sometimes in English), you will need the local language to talk to shop keepers, repair men, salespeople, any government worker, etc. Basically all the day to day bullshit errands you need to do are only doable in the local language. In Nordic countries at least, that is indeed not a problem. Literally everybody speaks english at some level, and the whole especially in the larger cities you can often end in shops or restaurants where the people that work there only speak english.
    - 10y ago
patates 10y ago
When uneducated immigrants seek social services, I don't look at them in a negative light. Dismissing them just like that, however, comes to me as too elitist.
peteretep 10y ago
> it sickens me how these "refugees" are choosing what > country to stay in despite the fact they say they > escaped war and torture Having escaped war and torture, why wouldn't you then want to maximize your chances of a successful rest of life?
- tibiapejagala 10y ago
  Because the law says you can't do that. Well, you might not agree with that certain rule, but note that many do not agree that any form of taxation is fair. Maybe they just want to maximize their chances of a successful rest of life?
  - peteretep 10y ago
    The law says you can't do what, exactly?
obj-g 10y ago
For me, the disgusting thing was when the large amounts of immigrants were coming in all together and they were complaining about being in Denmark or wherever. This guy, I mean, in this situation, I guess it's wiser for him to choose -- but the people in the first situation should have just been grateful, not complaining that they don't want to be here in X. The way they expressed it made them come off really poorly, in my opinion.
danso 10y ago
I don't agree with breaking the laws of a host country when coming in as a refugee, but it's important to realize that many refugees had normal lives and were functional parts of their society before war befell them. They aren't just the dregs of society, looking for the next host to scam and rummage before moving on, though your use of "refugees" in scare quotes seems to imply that you don't see them as real people.
- curiousgal 10y ago
  I only used "refugees" to refer to the dregs of society you mentioned, not the actual refugees.
cabalamat 10y ago
> it sickens me how these "refugees" are choosing what country to stay in Why is it sickening? Surely it makes sense for any person to choose the best option of those open to them?
- curiousgal 10y ago
  That is precisely the point. Some options are not open to them. Something about having to go through smugglers and secretly cross borders gives that out.
NetStrikeForce 10y ago
> It saddens me how they are giving us, potential future immigrants with degrees and a desire to be functional parts of society, more bad rep. Does having a degree make you a better person or a more functional part of society? Does not having a degree bring bad rep? And. Why do you think these people don't have degrees and can't be functional members of society? Do you think they're stupid because their country was at war? or are they stupid because they have no means to just catch a plane and get a visa? Your comment is extremely unfortunate.
- DominikR 10y ago
  > Does having a degree make you a better person or a more functional part of society? I think it would be safe to say that in case of the parent commenter this is true. It seems obvious that he/she is educated and actually wants to be a part of society.
  - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
    Nothing of that makes you a better person. This whole thread is fucked up and I'm totally losing faith in humanity.
    - DominikR 10y ago
      Who cares what you believe in?
      - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
        It must be shit to be you :-)
        DominikR 10y ago
        What kind of reply did you expect with this insult? ;-) You can either argue with me based on facts or at least come up with some thoughtful insights but not with "I'm loosing faith in humanity".
magic_beans 10y ago
Are you serious? Do you understand what the situation is in Syria? Why do you deserve to be in a country any more than a refugee? What exactly does your "degree" do to contribute to "functional" society any more than a refugee's job?
- curiousgal 10y ago
  I never said I deserve to be in a country more than they do but when someone illegally enters a country and accidents start to happen. Citizens of that country can't help but question immigrants in general and that's all I've said. I used "refugees" intentionally to refer only to immigrants with solely economic motives not all refugees.

gutnor 10y ago

Is that true though ? It seems to be a recurrent theme, both in the press talking about benefit tourism in the UK and from apparently the believes of the immigrant like those desperately trying to cross the Channel tunnel at Calais. However, I'm a European living in the UK. About all areas I have looked seem to pay less or way less than France, Belgium or northern countries. For example, unemployment benefits are a fraction of the one in France. State pension is a joke. As soon as you start earning an average salary, child/housing benefit are pretty much inexistent, especially considering that stuff like nurseries cost 3 to 4 times more than equivalent private nurseries in France or Belgium. Public school do not offer facilities for children outside hours and start later and close earlier than on the continent, meaning you need to "go private" for that too while it is free in both France and Belgium. Your workplace rights are laughable: after 8 years my wife would get the same redundancy package than a new starter in the same company in France. The list goes on and on. What exactly is so amazing about the UK benefits that is worth the trouble compared to staying in France ? The real stuff that the UK has going for it is that you pay less tax, there are more work opportunities and in big cities, there is less employment discrimination. But that means that immigrant come to work not as benefit leeches as they are picture in the news.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
lotsofcows 10y ago
This idea that paying less tax is a good thing boggles the mind. Do you think tax payer money is just burnt or something? Paying taxes provide services that maintain the sensible level of social movement and pay differential that has been demonstrated to advance entire societies. Why do so many people want to be the richest person in a shit-hole?
- mindcrime 10y ago
  Do you think tax payer money is just burnt or something? No, some small percentage of it is used for "social good" and the rest is wasted or funneled to well connected / powerful political insiders and their cronies.

vidarh 10y ago

If it's social services you are after, the UK should be far down the list of places in the EEA to go to. Benefits payments here are laughable compared to large parts of Europe.