4 ms·

Couldn't reverse tracing work? A fed poses as a customer, and uses a PO Box to receive goods, but also registers this in the Fedex, USPS, UPS databases, such th

Couldn't reverse tracing work? A fed poses as a customer, and uses a PO Box to receive goods, but also registers this in the Fedex, USPS, UPS databases, such that if this address appears anywhere on a package, it is traced to determine the origin. Build a network over time, repeat.

dublinben 10y ago
That is a common tactic used in cases like this.
dnm_hn_thread 10y ago
The FBI cannot legally trace USPS mail without a warrant, but can with Fedex, UPS, et. al. Almost all US darknet shipments go through USPS for this reason.
- mej10 10y ago
  Thats an interesting competitive advantage for USPS.
- ams6110 10y ago
  The USPS images every address they deliver now and logs for law enforcement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_Isolation_Control_and_Tracking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_Isolation_Control_and_Tra... I flatly do not believe the claims that the images are not retained long term.
- andrewpi 10y ago
  They only need a warrant to open the mail. They can freely use the information printed on the outside of the envelope for their investigations.
Cerium 10y ago
They could build a Physical Onion Router. Send package to a node, which opens it to find a smaller package already addressed to another location. Similar to TOR each hop will increase security at the expense of resource utilization.
- twinkletwinkle 10y ago
  Doesn't that leave a huge paper trail?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - sp332 10y ago
    It works if you have a decent volume and can't trace individual inputs to individual outputs. If you get one package and send one package, it's a little obvious.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dublinben 10y ago
  Anonymous remailers have been around for decades. They were largely supplanted by online communications, or shut down.
- chatmasta 10y ago
  Except unlike an encrypted hash, a cardboard box does not offer much protection from ripping it open and seeing what's inside. ;)
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  An interesting idea, but each hop has sniffer dogs. Also those nodes would be an obvious place to use extra resources monitoring.
TACIXAT 10y ago
This is where good opsec would come in. Use postal boxes in many different locations. Be wary of cameras that could get an image of you or your plate. Don't carry your smartphone.
cloudjacker 10y ago
The sellers drop the packages off in mailing boxes, ideally far from where they actually live. This would render your idea less worthwhile. There have been arrest of sellers and buyers, primarily due to noobish mistakes. All told, the risk for the seller is much lower than dealing with a variety of forces in the street in their local jurisdiction. Therefore your idea becomes a war of attrition for law enforcement. Where the yield is too low to justify the cost. This is why more effort goes into shutting down the marketplaces, but even this has become a war of attrition ever since the Silk Road 1.0 bust. The federal government operating through just one agency got 80 million in bitcoin from that bust. The next year, the FBI required cooperation with 16 agencies across Europe in a dragnet bust that only got 1.2 million in bitcoin, with most sites being back online in a week. The trend continues, and every enforcement action simply prompts consumers, merchants, and site providers to implement UX and security practices that they already knew they should have been using (multisig addresses instead of human escrow, use of tails/whonix, not logging in as admin from a public library, etc)
- runeks 10y ago
  > This is why more effort goes into shutting down the marketplaces, but even this has become a war of attrition ever since the Silk Road 1.0 bust. Gwern lists at least 20 active Darknet markets: https://www.gwern.net/Black-market%20survival https://www.gwern.net/Black-market%20survival - I don't think law enforcement will ever get rid of Darknet markets. The important point is that every time law enforcement removes one marketplace, customers are forced to visit the next one that's still online, thus increasing their revenue, effectively strengthening the strongest competitors every time they make a bust. The weakest marketplace is wiped out by law enforcement - leaving behind increasingly resilient markets - and new ones appear all the time, adding to the number of markets at the same time they're growing more resilient. It's a fight against evolution that I can't possible see anyone winning.

dublinben 10y ago

That is a common tactic used in cases like this.

dnm_hn_thread 10y ago

The FBI cannot legally trace USPS mail without a warrant, but can with Fedex, UPS, et. al. Almost all US darknet shipments go through USPS for this reason.

mej10 10y ago
Thats an interesting competitive advantage for USPS.
ams6110 10y ago
The USPS images every address they deliver now and logs for law enforcement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_Isolation_Control_and_Tracking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_Isolation_Control_and_Tra... I flatly do not believe the claims that the images are not retained long term.
andrewpi 10y ago
They only need a warrant to open the mail. They can freely use the information printed on the outside of the envelope for their investigations.

Cerium 10y ago

They could build a Physical Onion Router. Send package to a node, which opens it to find a smaller package already addressed to another location. Similar to TOR each hop will increase security at the expense of resource utilization.

twinkletwinkle 10y ago
Doesn't that leave a huge paper trail?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- sp332 10y ago
  It works if you have a decent volume and can't trace individual inputs to individual outputs. If you get one package and send one package, it's a little obvious.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dublinben 10y ago
Anonymous remailers have been around for decades. They were largely supplanted by online communications, or shut down.
chatmasta 10y ago
Except unlike an encrypted hash, a cardboard box does not offer much protection from ripping it open and seeing what's inside. ;)
brokenmachine 10y ago
An interesting idea, but each hop has sniffer dogs. Also those nodes would be an obvious place to use extra resources monitoring.

TACIXAT 10y ago

This is where good opsec would come in. Use postal boxes in many different locations. Be wary of cameras that could get an image of you or your plate. Don't carry your smartphone.

cloudjacker 10y ago

The sellers drop the packages off in mailing boxes, ideally far from where they actually live. This would render your idea less worthwhile. There have been arrest of sellers and buyers, primarily due to noobish mistakes. All told, the risk for the seller is much lower than dealing with a variety of forces in the street in their local jurisdiction. Therefore your idea becomes a war of attrition for law enforcement. Where the yield is too low to justify the cost. This is why more effort goes into shutting down the marketplaces, but even this has become a war of attrition ever since the Silk Road 1.0 bust. The federal government operating through just one agency got 80 million in bitcoin from that bust. The next year, the FBI required cooperation with 16 agencies across Europe in a dragnet bust that only got 1.2 million in bitcoin, with most sites being back online in a week. The trend continues, and every enforcement action simply prompts consumers, merchants, and site providers to implement UX and security practices that they already knew they should have been using (multisig addresses instead of human escrow, use of tails/whonix, not logging in as admin from a public library, etc)

runeks 10y ago
> This is why more effort goes into shutting down the marketplaces, but even this has become a war of attrition ever since the Silk Road 1.0 bust. Gwern lists at least 20 active Darknet markets: https://www.gwern.net/Black-market%20survival https://www.gwern.net/Black-market%20survival - I don't think law enforcement will ever get rid of Darknet markets. The important point is that every time law enforcement removes one marketplace, customers are forced to visit the next one that's still online, thus increasing their revenue, effectively strengthening the strongest competitors every time they make a bust. The weakest marketplace is wiped out by law enforcement - leaving behind increasingly resilient markets - and new ones appear all the time, adding to the number of markets at the same time they're growing more resilient. It's a fight against evolution that I can't possible see anyone winning.