5 ms·

>>As a counterpoint, countries that already have this are far behind the US in small business creation. Do you have any data to back up your assertion ? Accor

by credo 17y ago

>>As a counterpoint, countries that already have this are far behind the US in small business creation. Do you have any data to back up your assertion ? According to http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/small-business-2009-08.pdf http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/small-business-20... "By every measure of small-business employment, the United States has among the world’s smallest small-business sectors (as a proportion of total national employment)."

jacoblyles 17y ago
That's certainly an interesting link. I knew that over 99% of US businesses are considered "small" employing half the population, but I didn't know that Europe had such a vibrant entrepreneurial society. I'll admit, I'm in middle of a Programming Languages final so I didn't do a lot of statistical digging and relied on anecdote instead. Still the authors of that study do appear to have an ideological axe to grind. I would be interested in researching the matter further from a less ideological source. I'm curious why we think of the United States having such a large share of the world's startups and invention if it isn't true.
- netcan 17y ago
  Unfortunately, if you want to pursue anything on topics such as these, you will need to live with the existence biases including your own. For what it's worth it seems to me like the abstract ideological debate between state and private control tends to be vibrant in The States and therefore breeds more "ideological" positions.
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  And it does strike me as weird that I have a lot of friends from third world countries that come here because they view America as the land of entrepreneurial opportunity, when this study shows that they would be much better off in Germany.
  - bluedanieru 17y ago
    You probably haven't met the ones that moved to Germany instead.
  - thomasz 17y ago
    There are factors that are equally or even more important, like taxes, availability of capital, bureaucratic hurdles etc. I once heard from a German restaurant owner that he fought 12 years to get a permission to put tables in the garden...
    - eru 17y ago
      Another factor might be that it's possible to get accepted as an American in a few years. In Germany you may be a naturalized citizen on paper--but the real social acceptance of compatriots runs through bloodlines. (I.e. you have to look the part, too.) Not that they won't be nice to you. But your children will stay, say, "Turks" in the third generation and onwards.
- nandemo 17y ago
  What I got from that link is that "small business percentage" is not a reliable indicator of entrepreneurial spirit. One interpretation of the data presented here is that self-employment and small-business employment may be a less important indicator of entrepreneurship than we have long thought. Another reading of the data, however, is that the United States has something to learn from the experience of other advanced economies, which appear to have had much better luck promoting and sustaining small-business employment. The self-employment rates in Figure 1 are particularly high in Greece (35.9 percent), Italy (26.4), Portugal (24.2), and several other countries where agriculture is still an important part of national employment.
  - jules 17y ago
    Lets compare this to the profitability of the countries (dollars mean billion dollars). I'm not an economist so I don't know whether this makes sense at all. Country selfemployed export import net ======================================== Greece 35.9% $27 $82 $-55 (ouch) Italy 26.4% $369 $358 $+11 Portugal 24.2% $58 $88 $-30 Spain 17.7% $216 $293 $-77 Germany 12.0% $1,187 $1,022 $+65 Netherlands 12.4% $398 $359 $+39 EU ~13%* $1,952 $1,690 $+262 US 7.2% $995 $1,445 $-450 * I eyeballed this from the data in the PDF posted above So within the EU there doesn't seem to be a positive correlation between net income of a country and self employment (or if there is one it's negative), except maybe that self employment is higher in the EU than in the US and net income of the EU is positive whereas net income of the US is negative (Anyone want to make a table of the full data set? Export and import can be found on wikipedia and self employment in the PDF posted above). Offtopic: While browsing wikipedia I found this: External debt of Luxembourg is 4,973.68% of GDP (not kidding). Is this something to be very scared about if you live in Luxembourg, or is it not a big problem? Can somebody with a understanding of the matter explain this? :) Edit: Oh I think I get it: it's the amount they borrow, not the net amount of lending/borrowing.
    - stretchwithme 17y ago
      the US's advantage is not that people are self employed. it is that one can start a business and grow it rapidly (or slowly and steadily), eventually hiring a lot of people and/or creating efficiencies for those using the product or service. in other words, its the ability to be entrepreneur and not have boot anchors placed in you path. having many small shops making products by hand is not what creates wealth
jaytee_clone 17y ago
That's quite interesting. Thank you for the link. I wonder why does the US have such a high reputation in entrepreneurship. Is it because we have a higher concentration of high tech start-ups (unverified), which generate more buzz in the media?
- elbenshira 17y ago
  It's not just the high tech industry. It's in pretty much everywhere (e.g. construction contractors, engineering consultants, etc).
zavulon 17y ago
Small business != (entrepreneur or start-up) A convenience store owner in Germany whose father and grandfather owned and worked in the same store can't be put into the same category as a 25 year old who quits his job to found a groundbreaking internet technology company. Both count as small businesses. One is changing the world, the other one is not.
- garply 17y ago
  Entrepreneur: "a person who organizes and manages any enterprise, esp. a business, usually with considerable initiative and risk." from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/entrepreneur http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/entrepreneur I'd said that the founder of any small business is definitely an entrepreneur.

by credo 17y ago

jacoblyles 17y ago

That's certainly an interesting link. I knew that over 99% of US businesses are considered "small" employing half the population, but I didn't know that Europe had such a vibrant entrepreneurial society. I'll admit, I'm in middle of a Programming Languages final so I didn't do a lot of statistical digging and relied on anecdote instead. Still the authors of that study do appear to have an ideological axe to grind. I would be interested in researching the matter further from a less ideological source. I'm curious why we think of the United States having such a large share of the world's startups and invention if it isn't true.

netcan 17y ago
Unfortunately, if you want to pursue anything on topics such as these, you will need to live with the existence biases including your own. For what it's worth it seems to me like the abstract ideological debate between state and private control tends to be vibrant in The States and therefore breeds more "ideological" positions.
jacoblyles 17y ago
And it does strike me as weird that I have a lot of friends from third world countries that come here because they view America as the land of entrepreneurial opportunity, when this study shows that they would be much better off in Germany.
- bluedanieru 17y ago
  You probably haven't met the ones that moved to Germany instead.
- thomasz 17y ago
  There are factors that are equally or even more important, like taxes, availability of capital, bureaucratic hurdles etc. I once heard from a German restaurant owner that he fought 12 years to get a permission to put tables in the garden...
  - eru 17y ago
    Another factor might be that it's possible to get accepted as an American in a few years. In Germany you may be a naturalized citizen on paper--but the real social acceptance of compatriots runs through bloodlines. (I.e. you have to look the part, too.) Not that they won't be nice to you. But your children will stay, say, "Turks" in the third generation and onwards.
nandemo 17y ago
What I got from that link is that "small business percentage" is not a reliable indicator of entrepreneurial spirit. One interpretation of the data presented here is that self-employment and small-business employment may be a less important indicator of entrepreneurship than we have long thought. Another reading of the data, however, is that the United States has something to learn from the experience of other advanced economies, which appear to have had much better luck promoting and sustaining small-business employment. The self-employment rates in Figure 1 are particularly high in Greece (35.9 percent), Italy (26.4), Portugal (24.2), and several other countries where agriculture is still an important part of national employment.
- jules 17y ago
  Lets compare this to the profitability of the countries (dollars mean billion dollars). I'm not an economist so I don't know whether this makes sense at all. Country selfemployed export import net ======================================== Greece 35.9% $27 $82 $-55 (ouch) Italy 26.4% $369 $358 $+11 Portugal 24.2% $58 $88 $-30 Spain 17.7% $216 $293 $-77 Germany 12.0% $1,187 $1,022 $+65 Netherlands 12.4% $398 $359 $+39 EU ~13%* $1,952 $1,690 $+262 US 7.2% $995 $1,445 $-450 * I eyeballed this from the data in the PDF posted above So within the EU there doesn't seem to be a positive correlation between net income of a country and self employment (or if there is one it's negative), except maybe that self employment is higher in the EU than in the US and net income of the EU is positive whereas net income of the US is negative (Anyone want to make a table of the full data set? Export and import can be found on wikipedia and self employment in the PDF posted above). Offtopic: While browsing wikipedia I found this: External debt of Luxembourg is 4,973.68% of GDP (not kidding). Is this something to be very scared about if you live in Luxembourg, or is it not a big problem? Can somebody with a understanding of the matter explain this? :) Edit: Oh I think I get it: it's the amount they borrow, not the net amount of lending/borrowing.
  - stretchwithme 17y ago
    the US's advantage is not that people are self employed. it is that one can start a business and grow it rapidly (or slowly and steadily), eventually hiring a lot of people and/or creating efficiencies for those using the product or service. in other words, its the ability to be entrepreneur and not have boot anchors placed in you path. having many small shops making products by hand is not what creates wealth

jaytee_clone 17y ago

That's quite interesting. Thank you for the link. I wonder why does the US have such a high reputation in entrepreneurship. Is it because we have a higher concentration of high tech start-ups (unverified), which generate more buzz in the media?

elbenshira 17y ago
It's not just the high tech industry. It's in pretty much everywhere (e.g. construction contractors, engineering consultants, etc).

zavulon 17y ago

Small business != (entrepreneur or start-up) A convenience store owner in Germany whose father and grandfather owned and worked in the same store can't be put into the same category as a 25 year old who quits his job to found a groundbreaking internet technology company. Both count as small businesses. One is changing the world, the other one is not.

garply 17y ago
Entrepreneur: "a person who organizes and manages any enterprise, esp. a business, usually with considerable initiative and risk." from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/entrepreneur http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/entrepreneur I'd said that the founder of any small business is definitely an entrepreneur.