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Do you truly and honestly sense software quality as a hallmark of Linux? To me, Linux feels like a bucket of papercuts glued together with ... I don't know - so

Do you truly and honestly sense software quality as a hallmark of Linux? To me, Linux feels like a bucket of papercuts glued together with ... I don't know - something glueish.. I have tried loving Linux for the past 17 years, but I just can't muster the idealism anymore. I have gone back to Windows 7, which is rock stable.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
I have to use Linux because I am an embedded developer, and all my clients want to use something free. Ok. But I develop in Windows because I can get stuff done. I limp along in the Linux environment, mounting sdcards and sticking thumbdrives into USB ports to copy files, which don't mount right unless you do it very carefully and wait for things to time out and take it out and try again ... Love the simile. I am a human Linux-papercut entity with scars covering every inch of me, from months of struggling to do every single development task from symbolic debugging to editing to mounting storage to finding drivers for old well-supported devices that somehow never got Linux support. But its a living! I make good money papering over Linux's shortcomings for industrial clients. So its got that going for it.
- the_af 10y ago
  You are comfortable with Windows as a dev environment, and that's fine. But consider that for many of us, it's like the mirror image of what you just said: I find the Windows environment painful to develop with, at least out of the box. Everything about Windows irks me. Linux (Ubuntu in my case, but there are many great distros) works as a dev environment almost out of the box for me. I never have problems mounting USB drives; most tools I use assume Linux by default, and it's usually their Windows version that's more buggy and/or hard to install. I know how to tune everything to my satisfaction, which I wouldn't know how to do with Windows. Instead, every time I use Windows I get a papercut. (To get this back on topic: I love and use GIMP, and I particularly love that a Free alternative to Photoshop exists, but I agree it's very complex and its interface is a mess).
  - lucb1e 10y ago
    Same experience here: in Linux everything I want works by default or I can configure it easily. In Windows I have to jump through a bunch of hoops with third party tools to get there. I'm a developer though, for most people it doesn't really make a difference. It's just a matter of being used to something. My girlfriend liked Ubuntu a lot for the graphics (she asked me to install it after seeing me use Linux Mint and Debian for a year or so), but eventually switched back to Windows because a single website wouldn't work (some flash player thing, which Adobe stopped supporting) and she's just more used to working with Microsoft Office 2007, Windows Live Mail (or whatever they call it these days), and the general Windows 8.1 workflow. Same for me with LibreOffice: I'm used to it now and in Microsoft Office (which is admittedly prettier) I have to search for every feature all over again.
    - the_af 10y ago
      I fully agree comfort is often a function of being used to something. I understand your girlfriend and think that, for her, it makes more sense to keep using Windows... for now! Also, MS Office is a killer feature of Windows, for users familiar with it or who must use it for work.
    - anonbanker 10y ago
      I've taken great pride at every person I've converted since 2010 that don't know Word's Ribbon interface, but can zoom through libreoffice. They use Word and complain. it's like WordPerfect all over again.
  - groovy2shoes 10y ago
    I also find Windows to be a painful environment to work in. All of my preferred tools are second-class citizens on Windows: vim, TeX, emacs, GCC, and pretty much anything that uses GTK or X11, really. The lack of a decent tiling WM slows me down considerably. If it weren't for Cygwin, I don't think I could get anything done in Windows. I'm trying to think of a single thing that Windows has going for it, but I'm at a loss. I haven't had any driver issues on Linux in over 5 years at this point, and I don't play games, so I have literally no reason to use Windows except for the fact that it's what's supported on my employer's laptops.
amitheonlyone 10y ago
I've been using Linux (Well only Ubuntu and Fedora to be fair) without any kind of dual boot to Windows set up for like 5 years now. Before that, I always used to have a Windows installation along with the Linux OS. But as I started getting comfortable with Linux, I just didn't feel like booting up Windows. The only thing I miss is the availability and the performance of games on Linux machines. Also used to have driver issues when I started but almost everything works out of the box now. Currently on Ubuntu 16.04.
zeveb 10y ago
> Do you truly and honestly sense software quality as a hallmark of Linux? Yes, but that reflects my experience. I use emacs, st, zsh, SBCL, Python, Go, Debian: the flakiest software I run is Firefox. Others have a different experience. They use gedit, gnome-terminal, bash, Ubuntu: the most stable software they run is Firefox. Windows, OTOH, is so bad that it tries to download OS updates as monolithic, multi-GB blobs instead of small package updates. This can be bad when one has insufficient hard drive space for the monolithic blob but plenty of space to install a few packages and update them. Windows advertises to one. Debian doesn't. Windows tracks one's input. Debian doesn't. Windows is slow on old hardware. Debian isn't. Windows has a fairly crappy interface. Debian doesn't (whether default, or using one of the available replacement DEs/WMs).
- groovy2shoes 10y ago
  > Windows has a fairly crappy interface. Debian doesn't (whether default, or using one of the available replacement DEs/WMs). You clearly haven't tried using AfterStep ;)
  - anonbanker 10y ago
    Or FVWM2. or IceWM. or MacOS 9, or Windows XP PlayskoolOS. But let's keep the comparisons to desktop environments made this decade. Enlightenment 0.17 GNOME3, KDE Plasma 5, etc. if you're using Mint's Debian Edition (and new converts should if they're too scared to try Calculate Linux), you're likely to boot into something relatively pretty the first time.
    - groovy2shoes 10y ago
      I didn't take "crappy interface" to mean "aesthetically unpleasing" (not to say that such isn't a valid interpretation or belief). FVWM and IceWM, for example, might be ugly (though only by default -- I've seen pretty configurations of both), but I've always found them quite usable. AfterStep, though... * shiver *.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

I have to use Linux because I am an embedded developer, and all my clients want to use something free. Ok. But I develop in Windows because I can get stuff done. I limp along in the Linux environment, mounting sdcards and sticking thumbdrives into USB ports to copy files, which don't mount right unless you do it very carefully and wait for things to time out and take it out and try again ... Love the simile. I am a human Linux-papercut entity with scars covering every inch of me, from months of struggling to do every single development task from symbolic debugging to editing to mounting storage to finding drivers for old well-supported devices that somehow never got Linux support. But its a living! I make good money papering over Linux's shortcomings for industrial clients. So its got that going for it.

the_af 10y ago
You are comfortable with Windows as a dev environment, and that's fine. But consider that for many of us, it's like the mirror image of what you just said: I find the Windows environment painful to develop with, at least out of the box. Everything about Windows irks me. Linux (Ubuntu in my case, but there are many great distros) works as a dev environment almost out of the box for me. I never have problems mounting USB drives; most tools I use assume Linux by default, and it's usually their Windows version that's more buggy and/or hard to install. I know how to tune everything to my satisfaction, which I wouldn't know how to do with Windows. Instead, every time I use Windows I get a papercut. (To get this back on topic: I love and use GIMP, and I particularly love that a Free alternative to Photoshop exists, but I agree it's very complex and its interface is a mess).
- lucb1e 10y ago
  Same experience here: in Linux everything I want works by default or I can configure it easily. In Windows I have to jump through a bunch of hoops with third party tools to get there. I'm a developer though, for most people it doesn't really make a difference. It's just a matter of being used to something. My girlfriend liked Ubuntu a lot for the graphics (she asked me to install it after seeing me use Linux Mint and Debian for a year or so), but eventually switched back to Windows because a single website wouldn't work (some flash player thing, which Adobe stopped supporting) and she's just more used to working with Microsoft Office 2007, Windows Live Mail (or whatever they call it these days), and the general Windows 8.1 workflow. Same for me with LibreOffice: I'm used to it now and in Microsoft Office (which is admittedly prettier) I have to search for every feature all over again.
  - the_af 10y ago
    I fully agree comfort is often a function of being used to something. I understand your girlfriend and think that, for her, it makes more sense to keep using Windows... for now! Also, MS Office is a killer feature of Windows, for users familiar with it or who must use it for work.
  - anonbanker 10y ago
    I've taken great pride at every person I've converted since 2010 that don't know Word's Ribbon interface, but can zoom through libreoffice. They use Word and complain. it's like WordPerfect all over again.
- groovy2shoes 10y ago
  I also find Windows to be a painful environment to work in. All of my preferred tools are second-class citizens on Windows: vim, TeX, emacs, GCC, and pretty much anything that uses GTK or X11, really. The lack of a decent tiling WM slows me down considerably. If it weren't for Cygwin, I don't think I could get anything done in Windows. I'm trying to think of a single thing that Windows has going for it, but I'm at a loss. I haven't had any driver issues on Linux in over 5 years at this point, and I don't play games, so I have literally no reason to use Windows except for the fact that it's what's supported on my employer's laptops.

amitheonlyone 10y ago

I've been using Linux (Well only Ubuntu and Fedora to be fair) without any kind of dual boot to Windows set up for like 5 years now. Before that, I always used to have a Windows installation along with the Linux OS. But as I started getting comfortable with Linux, I just didn't feel like booting up Windows. The only thing I miss is the availability and the performance of games on Linux machines. Also used to have driver issues when I started but almost everything works out of the box now. Currently on Ubuntu 16.04.

zeveb 10y ago

> Do you truly and honestly sense software quality as a hallmark of Linux? Yes, but that reflects my experience. I use emacs, st, zsh, SBCL, Python, Go, Debian: the flakiest software I run is Firefox. Others have a different experience. They use gedit, gnome-terminal, bash, Ubuntu: the most stable software they run is Firefox. Windows, OTOH, is so bad that it tries to download OS updates as monolithic, multi-GB blobs instead of small package updates. This can be bad when one has insufficient hard drive space for the monolithic blob but plenty of space to install a few packages and update them. Windows advertises to one. Debian doesn't. Windows tracks one's input. Debian doesn't. Windows is slow on old hardware. Debian isn't. Windows has a fairly crappy interface. Debian doesn't (whether default, or using one of the available replacement DEs/WMs).

groovy2shoes 10y ago
> Windows has a fairly crappy interface. Debian doesn't (whether default, or using one of the available replacement DEs/WMs). You clearly haven't tried using AfterStep ;)
- anonbanker 10y ago
  Or FVWM2. or IceWM. or MacOS 9, or Windows XP PlayskoolOS. But let's keep the comparisons to desktop environments made this decade. Enlightenment 0.17 GNOME3, KDE Plasma 5, etc. if you're using Mint's Debian Edition (and new converts should if they're too scared to try Calculate Linux), you're likely to boot into something relatively pretty the first time.
  - groovy2shoes 10y ago
    I didn't take "crappy interface" to mean "aesthetically unpleasing" (not to say that such isn't a valid interpretation or belief). FVWM and IceWM, for example, might be ugly (though only by default -- I've seen pretty configurations of both), but I've always found them quite usable. AfterStep, though... * shiver *.