6 ms·

If you don't mind me asking, is the pay competitive? I definitely like the ethos of GitLab, but unfortunately most of the remote-only companies I've interviewe

If you don't mind me asking, is the pay competitive? I definitely like the ethos of GitLab, but unfortunately most of the remote-only companies I've interviewed with just don't offer salaries competitive with either SV/NYC tech or what I can make doing remote contracting.

sytse 10y ago
Our pay depends on your location. So if you're currently charging an SF rate without the expenses of living there you're better off.
- fweespeech 10y ago
  Have you considered open salaries (just the formula really would be all that was needed) like Buffer?
  - sytse 10y ago
    Yes, we're working on a global compensation framework. This is hinted at on https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/hiring/#hiring-processa-namehiring-processa https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/hiring/#hiring-processa-na... "The hiring manager can then make the actual offer to the applicant. This may change if/when we have a global compensation framework in place." and in the job description of the Director of People Operations https://about.gitlab.com/jobs/dir-or-vp-of-people-ops/ https://about.gitlab.com/jobs/dir-or-vp-of-people-ops/ "Compensation guidelines that work worldwide but tailored to local markets, to the city level" For now only are principles are detailed on https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/#compensation-principles https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/#compens... one important one: "We pay on the lower end of market rates for engineering positions because we offer the benefit of working on open source (great workflow, peers, build reputation); most engineers take a pay cut to join."
    - fweespeech 10y ago
      Cool. I look forward to seeing a blog post when you have that compensation framework completed. :) I've seen/heard words like that meaning anything from a 10% paycut to a 55% paycut in practical terms, its too big a range for me to really take away an effective idea of GitLab's pay level which is why I was curious about the more concrete form. A 10-15% haircut for a place as good as GitLab sounds on paper seems reasonable, a 50% haircut...not so much.
      - sytse 10y ago
        For sure we'll do a blog post about it. By the way if you want something now the Travis CI talk is really good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8u9H6JDAzo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8u9H6JDAzo We don't have any hard data on this but I think we're in the reasonable range.
        tetraodonpuffer 10y ago
        when it comes to deciding compensation levels, what metrics do you use? what companies in the area pay? real estate prices? a mix or something else? there are places in the world where, say, the real estate is red-hot (obviously making higher salaries more desirable) but where local companies have not kept up with that (making cross-company surveys skew really low) so in that case what would you do? Managing a distributed remote-friendly company definitely seems challenging, of course you're open source and have an awesome reputation, so salary is very likely not something prospective employees consider as much as they would otherwise when joining (which likely works in your favor in creating a very nice working environment full of engaged folks)
        sytse 10y ago
        We're still in the early stages of this. Our current thinking is in https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TEHZTvg9jxlwvKvsc5fm2FvZ7tbS69iIQauSPnH8H3o/edit# https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TEHZTvg9jxlwvKvsc5fm2FvZ... We will maybe end up with a mix of cost of living, cost of labour, and rent. We address red-hot real estate by considering to add rent to the mix, but it is tricky since some team members might be living in rent-controlled apartments and we want to have a number that doesn't depend on personal circumstances.
- repomies691 10y ago
  So people are paid according what they spend, not what they produce? That doesn't sound very sensible to me.
  - sytse 10y ago
    We thought about paying independent of location. If we pay everyone the same we would have either a huge burn rate or we could never hire great people from the Bay Area. Another consideration is that people's costs are strongly related to where they live. But I can also see the case for paying everyone the same. But I think other remote friendly companies are doing the same as us, this video shows how Travis CI thinks about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8u9H6JDAzo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8u9H6JDAzo
    - x1798DE 10y ago
      > Another consideration is that people's costs are strongly related to where they live. I think what's more important is that their competing offers from local companies will necessarily be higher, so assuming they're worth the higher price, you have to pay it.
- bisby 10y ago
  From just above: "Interestingly, more and more of my colleagues (and myself included) are moving house to their favorite places to live." How does pay vary with location changes? If I live in SF now, and get that pay, then move, do I wind up getting paid less? If I start in a small town with low expenses, does that mean I can never afford to move to SF?
  - sytse 10y ago
    That is indeed what is difficult. Any time you move metro regions we'll need to negotiate about the compensation. And if you're moving from an expensive to an affordable region your compensation will be lower.
    - elliotec 10y ago
      This kind of removes a lot of the draw about being remote - you'll get a pay cut if you move?!
      - sytse 10y ago
        You get a pay cut if you move to a less expensive metro area. And you have to contact us before you move. But so far we have always been able to make it work. I think most of our team thinks it is great that you do not have to switch jobs when you need to move because of family, the job of your partner, or some other reason.
- elliotec 10y ago
  Who decides what an SF rate is though? SF rates are highly variable, like in any other city.
  - sytse 10y ago
    We try to set rates per metro area so people can move in the metro area without renegotiating. We're still working on the framework, please see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TEHZTvg9jxlwvKvsc5fm2FvZ7tbS69iIQauSPnH8H3o/ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TEHZTvg9jxlwvKvsc5fm2FvZ...
- morgante 10y ago
  Thank you for being transparent. You've saved both of us some time.
elliotec 10y ago
The pay is not even close to competitive. I've been through the interview process and they wouldn't budge on what would be a 40% cut for me. Very disappointing considering how amazing everything else is. I felt a bit insulted, considering their inflexible rate was several thousand dollars lower than my first dev job.
- mohsinr 10y ago
  Was it due to your location? I read they base salary offer on applicant's location... something I am feeling very undemocratic lol... I was idealist thinking I could get paid as per my skills, talent, effort, contribution etc... hell with my location, I could be in India , then in Indonesia and next year working from Mars :-)
  - elliotec 10y ago
    I felt the same way, but then you get a pay cut when you go to Mars, and another when you go to Indonesia. If the max rate they told me was based on my location, I'd be shocked if they are even be able to find a mid level dev within several hundred miles of me.
    - mohsinr 10y ago
      Pay cut will be awkward. Thank you for adding more info, so offer was not even matched to your location...
- fapjacks 10y ago
  Right. It's pretty ridiculous that they don't put that front and center, but that "the low pay issue" has to bubble up somewhere in the comments. I find it rather distasteful to lean on open source as the primary reason for paying engineers less. It's plain from comments here and elsewhere that the main pressure is to keep the burn rate low. Which is fine, that's not a dumb thing to want to keep under control. But as we used to say in the Army, you can shine a turd but it's still a turd. And I mean no offense to Gitlab. I use Gitlab in production and think it's great software. All the more reason to pay the engineers well for their excellent work.

sytse 10y ago

Our pay depends on your location. So if you're currently charging an SF rate without the expenses of living there you're better off.

fweespeech 10y ago
Have you considered open salaries (just the formula really would be all that was needed) like Buffer?
- sytse 10y ago
  Yes, we're working on a global compensation framework. This is hinted at on https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/hiring/#hiring-processa-namehiring-processa https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/hiring/#hiring-processa-na... "The hiring manager can then make the actual offer to the applicant. This may change if/when we have a global compensation framework in place." and in the job description of the Director of People Operations https://about.gitlab.com/jobs/dir-or-vp-of-people-ops/ https://about.gitlab.com/jobs/dir-or-vp-of-people-ops/ "Compensation guidelines that work worldwide but tailored to local markets, to the city level" For now only are principles are detailed on https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/#compensation-principles https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/#compens... one important one: "We pay on the lower end of market rates for engineering positions because we offer the benefit of working on open source (great workflow, peers, build reputation); most engineers take a pay cut to join."
  - fweespeech 10y ago
    Cool. I look forward to seeing a blog post when you have that compensation framework completed. :) I've seen/heard words like that meaning anything from a 10% paycut to a 55% paycut in practical terms, its too big a range for me to really take away an effective idea of GitLab's pay level which is why I was curious about the more concrete form. A 10-15% haircut for a place as good as GitLab sounds on paper seems reasonable, a 50% haircut...not so much.
    - sytse 10y ago
      For sure we'll do a blog post about it. By the way if you want something now the Travis CI talk is really good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8u9H6JDAzo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8u9H6JDAzo We don't have any hard data on this but I think we're in the reasonable range.
      - tetraodonpuffer 10y ago
        when it comes to deciding compensation levels, what metrics do you use? what companies in the area pay? real estate prices? a mix or something else? there are places in the world where, say, the real estate is red-hot (obviously making higher salaries more desirable) but where local companies have not kept up with that (making cross-company surveys skew really low) so in that case what would you do? Managing a distributed remote-friendly company definitely seems challenging, of course you're open source and have an awesome reputation, so salary is very likely not something prospective employees consider as much as they would otherwise when joining (which likely works in your favor in creating a very nice working environment full of engaged folks)
        sytse 10y ago
        We're still in the early stages of this. Our current thinking is in https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TEHZTvg9jxlwvKvsc5fm2FvZ7tbS69iIQauSPnH8H3o/edit# https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TEHZTvg9jxlwvKvsc5fm2FvZ... We will maybe end up with a mix of cost of living, cost of labour, and rent. We address red-hot real estate by considering to add rent to the mix, but it is tricky since some team members might be living in rent-controlled apartments and we want to have a number that doesn't depend on personal circumstances.
repomies691 10y ago
So people are paid according what they spend, not what they produce? That doesn't sound very sensible to me.
- sytse 10y ago
  We thought about paying independent of location. If we pay everyone the same we would have either a huge burn rate or we could never hire great people from the Bay Area. Another consideration is that people's costs are strongly related to where they live. But I can also see the case for paying everyone the same. But I think other remote friendly companies are doing the same as us, this video shows how Travis CI thinks about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8u9H6JDAzo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8u9H6JDAzo
  - x1798DE 10y ago
    > Another consideration is that people's costs are strongly related to where they live. I think what's more important is that their competing offers from local companies will necessarily be higher, so assuming they're worth the higher price, you have to pay it.
bisby 10y ago
From just above: "Interestingly, more and more of my colleagues (and myself included) are moving house to their favorite places to live." How does pay vary with location changes? If I live in SF now, and get that pay, then move, do I wind up getting paid less? If I start in a small town with low expenses, does that mean I can never afford to move to SF?
- sytse 10y ago
  That is indeed what is difficult. Any time you move metro regions we'll need to negotiate about the compensation. And if you're moving from an expensive to an affordable region your compensation will be lower.
  - elliotec 10y ago
    This kind of removes a lot of the draw about being remote - you'll get a pay cut if you move?!
    - sytse 10y ago
      You get a pay cut if you move to a less expensive metro area. And you have to contact us before you move. But so far we have always been able to make it work. I think most of our team thinks it is great that you do not have to switch jobs when you need to move because of family, the job of your partner, or some other reason.
elliotec 10y ago
Who decides what an SF rate is though? SF rates are highly variable, like in any other city.
- sytse 10y ago
  We try to set rates per metro area so people can move in the metro area without renegotiating. We're still working on the framework, please see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TEHZTvg9jxlwvKvsc5fm2FvZ7tbS69iIQauSPnH8H3o/ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TEHZTvg9jxlwvKvsc5fm2FvZ...
morgante 10y ago
Thank you for being transparent. You've saved both of us some time.

elliotec 10y ago

The pay is not even close to competitive. I've been through the interview process and they wouldn't budge on what would be a 40% cut for me. Very disappointing considering how amazing everything else is. I felt a bit insulted, considering their inflexible rate was several thousand dollars lower than my first dev job.

mohsinr 10y ago
Was it due to your location? I read they base salary offer on applicant's location... something I am feeling very undemocratic lol... I was idealist thinking I could get paid as per my skills, talent, effort, contribution etc... hell with my location, I could be in India , then in Indonesia and next year working from Mars :-)
- elliotec 10y ago
  I felt the same way, but then you get a pay cut when you go to Mars, and another when you go to Indonesia. If the max rate they told me was based on my location, I'd be shocked if they are even be able to find a mid level dev within several hundred miles of me.
  - mohsinr 10y ago
    Pay cut will be awkward. Thank you for adding more info, so offer was not even matched to your location...
fapjacks 10y ago
Right. It's pretty ridiculous that they don't put that front and center, but that "the low pay issue" has to bubble up somewhere in the comments. I find it rather distasteful to lean on open source as the primary reason for paying engineers less. It's plain from comments here and elsewhere that the main pressure is to keep the burn rate low. Which is fine, that's not a dumb thing to want to keep under control. But as we used to say in the Army, you can shine a turd but it's still a turd. And I mean no offense to Gitlab. I use Gitlab in production and think it's great software. All the more reason to pay the engineers well for their excellent work.