5 ms·

I do wonder how much this effect extends down to more moderately priced violins. I remember reading about a similar experiment where wine experts couldn't dist

by neap24 10y ago

I do wonder how much this effect extends down to more moderately priced violins. I remember reading about a similar experiment where wine experts couldn't distinguish between wines at different price points very accurately (and some couldn't even distinguish between reds and whites!).

delazeur 10y ago
I am a little suspicious of those wine studies given that master sommeliers can identify vineyard and vintage in blind tastings with reasonable accuracy. Different wines taste fundamentally different. Saying people can't distinguish between red and white is like saying people can't distinguish between Bud Lite and Guinness. Who were these "experts" really? Restaurant critics? Even some wine critics I could believe, but not wine experts.
- cromulent 10y ago
  This study used oenology undergraduates at the University of Bordeaux. I guess I would consider them wine experts (relative to me) but the industry would not. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.227.7161&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.227... "A white wine artificially colored red with an odorless dye was olfactory described as a red wine by a panel of 54 tasters."
  - tinco 10y ago
    "CHEMICAL OBJECT REPRESENTATION IN THE FIELD OF CONSCIOUSNESS" I'd say, without reading the paper, that seems more like an experiment in psychology than in man's ability to perceive tastes. Can you trick your brain into believing something is something else by making it look like that? Seems like you can. "A white wine .. colored red.. was described as a red wine.." Were they wrong? There's a reason the Stradivarius testers are blindfolded.
    - vilhelm_s 10y ago
      Also reminds me of the McGurk effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGurk_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGurk_effect). If you present a stimuli outside the usual sample space, it's not clear that the responses are "wrong".
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    That may be pointing out the lack of expertise of the tasters. Aren't red vs white wines different things? I'm not at all a regular wine drinker with a sophisticated appreciation of the nuances, but I can pick up lots of different tastes between different wines.
    - Tloewald 10y ago
      There's a huge difference in taste between heavily wooded wines (e.g. Many reds and most Chardonnays) and wines made in stainless steel containers (e.g. most Sauvignon blancs) and it would be easy for anyone to tell them apart. But the taste difference between two wooded wines is far subtler. Red and white wines are both made from red grapes, the difference is that for red wines the juice is steeped in the grape skins which causes it to absorb tannins. If you learn to taste tannins you should be reasonably good at picking red from white, but the flavor from wood in young barrels is similar.
- dagw 10y ago
  Here is the study I'm guessing is being referred to: http://web.archive.org/web/20070928231853/http://www.academie-amorim.com/us/laureat_2001/brochet.pdf http://web.archive.org/web/20070928231853/http://www.academi... I believe the subjects where students studying wine rather than industry experts and a common criticism of the study is that the subjects where afraid of saying something 'stupid' (like "this red wine tastes like white") in front their professor, and instead went for the safe answer.
  - daleco 10y ago
    Good point, but a well conducted study should be anonymous and shouldn't include the professor inside the room. I doubt that the professor conducted the study (his phd students more likely did) The second study had random students (not trained ones)
    - dagw 10y ago
      I doubt that the professor conducted the study (his phd students more likely did) Still looking like an idiot in front of your professor's PhD students (and suspecting they'll be laughing about you over drinks later that evening) probably isn't much better.
- daleco 10y ago
  I remember reading about this study. They conducted the study at the oenology school that was right next to my engineering school. I vaguely remember that they used the student from the same oenology school for one of the study. I read similar studies conducted with wine experts, the conclusions were similar, it's about expectation. Maybe few people with extraordinary taste buds could tell the difference, but the general population won't. You can find a link to the study there https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-ta...
- hyperpape 10y ago
  Here was a video I found interesting, of some sommeliers who seem to have really good accuracy with regard to the wine they are tasting. It's not adequately double blinded, so I hope someone replicates this as a study: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBi9PfZve84 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBi9PfZve84. It does make me hope for more investigation: the white/red study was fascinating, but we really need more work to narrow down in which cases wine experts can be accurate or inaccurate.
intrasight 10y ago
If memory serves me right, one of the violins that came out on top in the original study was moderately priced (eg 1/10th the price) of the high-end models.
soundwave106 10y ago
From what I understand, the modern violins in this price range tend to be completely handcrafted by luthiers. (Actually $100K sounds high. Googling, it seems possible to get handmade violins for $10-$25K. See this quest: http://www.violinist.com/blog/smileyh1/20095/10115/ http://www.violinist.com/blog/smileyh1/20095/10115/) Luthier is definitely a skilled trade like any wood working, and I think it's easy for me to buy that an entirely hand-crafted product will have some "signatures" in tone and -- especially -- playability that, especially for the professional, might be worth paying for. (I know I definitely have some preferences in acoustic grands that boils down mostly to the nice playability of certain high end models, and I'm hardly a professional piano player!) I also imagine that above a certain quality level, much lower costing products will often be entirely acceptable. Actually, like wines, I imagine in some cases people might actually prefer the tone of the cheaper product. On the other hand, there's definitely a "too cheap" instrument level that's mostly for students / beginners. One additional point concerning the violin market, too, I know that if you change the name of "violin" to "fiddle", you'll find very few bluegrass shops selling fiddles over $1K. :)
- tomcam 10y ago
  Uh, no. Source: was just in Nashville pricing fiddles. The "cheap Chinese" ones went to $4K but the "good ones" were $5K to $15K.
  - soundwave106 10y ago
    Ah, interesting. Thanks for the correction, the online sources I quickly pulled must have been specializing in only the really cheap stuff.
    - tomcam 10y ago
      That's what happened to me too
- tomcam 10y ago
  Thanks for the link to the Smiley Hsu "My Quest for a 'Professional' violin" article. Finally read it. Very interesting look into buying a pro-quality violin in which the author ended up liking a $12,000 violin more than the $150,000 ones.

by neap24 10y ago

delazeur 10y ago

I am a little suspicious of those wine studies given that master sommeliers can identify vineyard and vintage in blind tastings with reasonable accuracy. Different wines taste fundamentally different. Saying people can't distinguish between red and white is like saying people can't distinguish between Bud Lite and Guinness. Who were these "experts" really? Restaurant critics? Even some wine critics I could believe, but not wine experts.

cromulent 10y ago
This study used oenology undergraduates at the University of Bordeaux. I guess I would consider them wine experts (relative to me) but the industry would not. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.227.7161&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.227... "A white wine artificially colored red with an odorless dye was olfactory described as a red wine by a panel of 54 tasters."
- tinco 10y ago
  "CHEMICAL OBJECT REPRESENTATION IN THE FIELD OF CONSCIOUSNESS" I'd say, without reading the paper, that seems more like an experiment in psychology than in man's ability to perceive tastes. Can you trick your brain into believing something is something else by making it look like that? Seems like you can. "A white wine .. colored red.. was described as a red wine.." Were they wrong? There's a reason the Stradivarius testers are blindfolded.
  - vilhelm_s 10y ago
    Also reminds me of the McGurk effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGurk_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGurk_effect). If you present a stimuli outside the usual sample space, it's not clear that the responses are "wrong".
- Spooky23 10y ago
  That may be pointing out the lack of expertise of the tasters. Aren't red vs white wines different things? I'm not at all a regular wine drinker with a sophisticated appreciation of the nuances, but I can pick up lots of different tastes between different wines.
  - Tloewald 10y ago
    There's a huge difference in taste between heavily wooded wines (e.g. Many reds and most Chardonnays) and wines made in stainless steel containers (e.g. most Sauvignon blancs) and it would be easy for anyone to tell them apart. But the taste difference between two wooded wines is far subtler. Red and white wines are both made from red grapes, the difference is that for red wines the juice is steeped in the grape skins which causes it to absorb tannins. If you learn to taste tannins you should be reasonably good at picking red from white, but the flavor from wood in young barrels is similar.
dagw 10y ago
Here is the study I'm guessing is being referred to: http://web.archive.org/web/20070928231853/http://www.academie-amorim.com/us/laureat_2001/brochet.pdf http://web.archive.org/web/20070928231853/http://www.academi... I believe the subjects where students studying wine rather than industry experts and a common criticism of the study is that the subjects where afraid of saying something 'stupid' (like "this red wine tastes like white") in front their professor, and instead went for the safe answer.
- daleco 10y ago
  Good point, but a well conducted study should be anonymous and shouldn't include the professor inside the room. I doubt that the professor conducted the study (his phd students more likely did) The second study had random students (not trained ones)
  - dagw 10y ago
    I doubt that the professor conducted the study (his phd students more likely did) Still looking like an idiot in front of your professor's PhD students (and suspecting they'll be laughing about you over drinks later that evening) probably isn't much better.
daleco 10y ago
I remember reading about this study. They conducted the study at the oenology school that was right next to my engineering school. I vaguely remember that they used the student from the same oenology school for one of the study. I read similar studies conducted with wine experts, the conclusions were similar, it's about expectation. Maybe few people with extraordinary taste buds could tell the difference, but the general population won't. You can find a link to the study there https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-ta...
hyperpape 10y ago
Here was a video I found interesting, of some sommeliers who seem to have really good accuracy with regard to the wine they are tasting. It's not adequately double blinded, so I hope someone replicates this as a study: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBi9PfZve84 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBi9PfZve84. It does make me hope for more investigation: the white/red study was fascinating, but we really need more work to narrow down in which cases wine experts can be accurate or inaccurate.

intrasight 10y ago

If memory serves me right, one of the violins that came out on top in the original study was moderately priced (eg 1/10th the price) of the high-end models.

soundwave106 10y ago

From what I understand, the modern violins in this price range tend to be completely handcrafted by luthiers. (Actually $100K sounds high. Googling, it seems possible to get handmade violins for $10-$25K. See this quest: http://www.violinist.com/blog/smileyh1/20095/10115/ http://www.violinist.com/blog/smileyh1/20095/10115/) Luthier is definitely a skilled trade like any wood working, and I think it's easy for me to buy that an entirely hand-crafted product will have some "signatures" in tone and -- especially -- playability that, especially for the professional, might be worth paying for. (I know I definitely have some preferences in acoustic grands that boils down mostly to the nice playability of certain high end models, and I'm hardly a professional piano player!) I also imagine that above a certain quality level, much lower costing products will often be entirely acceptable. Actually, like wines, I imagine in some cases people might actually prefer the tone of the cheaper product. On the other hand, there's definitely a "too cheap" instrument level that's mostly for students / beginners. One additional point concerning the violin market, too, I know that if you change the name of "violin" to "fiddle", you'll find very few bluegrass shops selling fiddles over $1K. :)

tomcam 10y ago
Uh, no. Source: was just in Nashville pricing fiddles. The "cheap Chinese" ones went to $4K but the "good ones" were $5K to $15K.
- soundwave106 10y ago
  Ah, interesting. Thanks for the correction, the online sources I quickly pulled must have been specializing in only the really cheap stuff.
  - tomcam 10y ago
    That's what happened to me too
tomcam 10y ago
Thanks for the link to the Smiley Hsu "My Quest for a 'Professional' violin" article. Finally read it. Very interesting look into buying a pro-quality violin in which the author ended up liking a $12,000 violin more than the $150,000 ones.