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How do you know the vast majority has been trying to do it?

stale2002 10y ago
As measured by the fact that every major bitcoin company and mining pool has explicitly said that they want these changes to take place? They want these changes to happen, they just want the Core Development team to say that they are going to stay out of the way, and not attempt to burn the whole thing down if they don't get their way.
- sanswork 10y ago
  If they want them to happen the Core Development team can't do anything to stop it. They can huff and puff but if everyone moves to another fork they lose all power. So if every major company and mining pool really wants it why haven't they gone around the core developers and coordinated a move?
  - stale2002 10y ago
    Yes they can do things to stop it. They can refuse to update core. They can say that they have 10% of the mining power and threaten to not move over to the hard fork. Basically, they can scare people into thinking that there is going to be two separate, competing chains. This would cause prices to crash , and crash hard. Because of this threat to burn the whole thing to the ground, they prevent the community from acting in the first place, even though it has the support to do so.
    - sanswork 10y ago
      >They can refuse to update core. Doesn't matter the majority of users have moved to the new fork. That becomes the new core. >They can say that they have 10% of the mining power and threaten to not move over to the hard fork. Why would this matter? That 10% of miners will move over quickly or lose money by mining on a fork with no value. >Basically, they can scare people into thinking that there is going to be two separate, competing chains. There would be but since the majority of users and miners and companies want the one you want theirs would be losing right? >This would cause prices to crash , and crash hard. Why? If the vast majority want the change then they will just continue on as normal. It's only the people still using the old fork that will have problems. None of these problems exist if the majority truely wants the change.
      - nullc 10y ago
        If it's a simple majority then that isn't true, a 50/50 split of the economy or hashrate would be pretty devastating. But if it were overwhelming, what you argue would hold.
        sanswork 10y ago
        Given his estimate is 90/10 in favour I'd say my argument holds. :)
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  If every company and mining pool decides to do something, isn't that the end of it? How can the devs prevent something? Maybe their official client might not recognize the changes and cause a fork but if it's true that even most mining pools and some major companies are moving, then why would anyone use the core fork?
  - stale2002 10y ago
    The problem is that they might be able to get 5-10% of the mining power, or do something crazy like change the proof of work algorithm (They HAVE threatened to do this!). And if they do that, then there is a chance that there will be two competing forks, instead of one, and each competing fork will dump their coins on the other fork, and basically cause the whole thing to crash. Core can't "win" by doing this, but they can certainly make the rest of us lose. This threat, along with their constant insistence that improvements are Just Around The Corner, has allowed them to delay efforts to coordinate and make the changes that the community wants. Eventually people will wizen up to the fact that their improvements are never coming, but until then, they are playing the delaying game to buy themselves as much time as possible until they are able to get their competing, lighting network out of the door.
    - sanswork 10y ago
      Why do you think 5-10% of the mining power matter? Why would changing the proof of work algorithm on their branch matter if everyone is using the other branch? All that would do is force the 5-10% of miners above to switch to the other branch to stop their equipment from becoming worthless. If there is one fork with 5-10% of the hashing power why do you think anyone would care about it? What do you mean by dump their coins on the other fork? You mean like try to sell them on an exchange? But the majority of users would be on the new fork right so they would have the majority of coins so why does it matter if the core developers dump their coins? Do you believe it to really be so fragile that a dozen users could crash the whole thing just by selling their coins? Have you considered that the real reason there hasn't been a change is that because the people that want it aren't actually in the majority?

stale2002 10y ago

As measured by the fact that every major bitcoin company and mining pool has explicitly said that they want these changes to take place? They want these changes to happen, they just want the Core Development team to say that they are going to stay out of the way, and not attempt to burn the whole thing down if they don't get their way.

sanswork 10y ago
If they want them to happen the Core Development team can't do anything to stop it. They can huff and puff but if everyone moves to another fork they lose all power. So if every major company and mining pool really wants it why haven't they gone around the core developers and coordinated a move?
- stale2002 10y ago
  Yes they can do things to stop it. They can refuse to update core. They can say that they have 10% of the mining power and threaten to not move over to the hard fork. Basically, they can scare people into thinking that there is going to be two separate, competing chains. This would cause prices to crash , and crash hard. Because of this threat to burn the whole thing to the ground, they prevent the community from acting in the first place, even though it has the support to do so.
  - sanswork 10y ago
    >They can refuse to update core. Doesn't matter the majority of users have moved to the new fork. That becomes the new core. >They can say that they have 10% of the mining power and threaten to not move over to the hard fork. Why would this matter? That 10% of miners will move over quickly or lose money by mining on a fork with no value. >Basically, they can scare people into thinking that there is going to be two separate, competing chains. There would be but since the majority of users and miners and companies want the one you want theirs would be losing right? >This would cause prices to crash , and crash hard. Why? If the vast majority want the change then they will just continue on as normal. It's only the people still using the old fork that will have problems. None of these problems exist if the majority truely wants the change.
    - nullc 10y ago
      If it's a simple majority then that isn't true, a 50/50 split of the economy or hashrate would be pretty devastating. But if it were overwhelming, what you argue would hold.
      - sanswork 10y ago
        Given his estimate is 90/10 in favour I'd say my argument holds. :)
MichaelGG 10y ago
If every company and mining pool decides to do something, isn't that the end of it? How can the devs prevent something? Maybe their official client might not recognize the changes and cause a fork but if it's true that even most mining pools and some major companies are moving, then why would anyone use the core fork?
- stale2002 10y ago
  The problem is that they might be able to get 5-10% of the mining power, or do something crazy like change the proof of work algorithm (They HAVE threatened to do this!). And if they do that, then there is a chance that there will be two competing forks, instead of one, and each competing fork will dump their coins on the other fork, and basically cause the whole thing to crash. Core can't "win" by doing this, but they can certainly make the rest of us lose. This threat, along with their constant insistence that improvements are Just Around The Corner, has allowed them to delay efforts to coordinate and make the changes that the community wants. Eventually people will wizen up to the fact that their improvements are never coming, but until then, they are playing the delaying game to buy themselves as much time as possible until they are able to get their competing, lighting network out of the door.
  - sanswork 10y ago
    Why do you think 5-10% of the mining power matter? Why would changing the proof of work algorithm on their branch matter if everyone is using the other branch? All that would do is force the 5-10% of miners above to switch to the other branch to stop their equipment from becoming worthless. If there is one fork with 5-10% of the hashing power why do you think anyone would care about it? What do you mean by dump their coins on the other fork? You mean like try to sell them on an exchange? But the majority of users would be on the new fork right so they would have the majority of coins so why does it matter if the core developers dump their coins? Do you believe it to really be so fragile that a dozen users could crash the whole thing just by selling their coins? Have you considered that the real reason there hasn't been a change is that because the people that want it aren't actually in the majority?