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Dane here (now expat) Europe in general have a problem with entrepreneurship. Stockholm, Berlin, London are the exceptions and even they don't really do that w

Dane here (now expat) Europe in general have a problem with entrepreneurship. Stockholm, Berlin, London are the exceptions and even they don't really do that well compared to SV. Zendesk is also Danish originally, Tradeshift is, Podio.. they all end up leaving because the market opportunity in Denmark is very small (6mio) and there isn't easy enough access to talent when you need to scale up The biggest mistake many entrepreneurs do in Denmark is that they start with Denmark as a test market and so it's very hard for them to actually scale both mentally and practically. The primary issue in my mind isn't really income taxes (although they do play a role). Denmark have a progressive tax system which means the top bracket pays around 52% or something like that (and cars have 180% taxes on top of the value of the car). Denmark also have one of the most beneficial holdning company tax rules in Europe which allows for a lot of possibilities for startups. And keep in mind that it's very easy to be unemployed and build a startup in Denmark. Healthcare is free, education is free, childcare is heavily subsidized, you get social benefits. What really hinders Denmark is a combination of a small market, small ambitions and the lack of a proper ecosystem with alumni (they leave) and not to forget the in my mind crippling effect of the harmonization of the EU (not the common market which is great) and last but not least. There is very little tradition of scaling a company big (Denmark haven't created a +1000 person company for the last 50 years or something like that)

uola 10y ago
It's not really unexpected. The road to success was paved a decade or two ago. Stockholm has very few "random" successful startup, it's pretty much all things that Sweden has been traditionally good at. Creative industries (music, games, ads) and infrastructure (telecom, databases, payments).
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Yeah and for it's size Denmark is doing pretty good. The problem is Europe in general.
ced 10y ago
there isn't easy enough access to talent when you need to scale up Isn't it harder/costlier to find talent in highly competitive SV than it is in Europe?
- MyNameIsFred 10y ago
  That's what I would figure, as well. My company moved to Seattle when we needed to expand and hire talent. Still a tech culture, but houses are still in the 6-digit range, and you don't have to pay $200k/year for a fresh graduate with a degree from CodeAcademy.
  - hobo_mark 10y ago
    Maybe you mean a certificate, but they don't even give that.
    - MyNameIsFred 10y ago
      It was a (lousy) joke.
- baddox 10y ago
  Sure, but in both places the labor prices are (roughly) market prices.
  - eru 10y ago
    How could they not be?
- mathattack 10y ago
  It is hard, but when you're an "It" company in hypergrowth it's the only place to be. When you're 20 people, it's easier being in a small city and just finding the best talent available. It's much harder to scale like Google/Facebook/Yahoo elsewhere. (It's possible in Seattle/NY/Boston/Austin, just tougher at the hypergrowth moment)
sangnoir 10y ago
> Europe in general have a problem with entrepreneurship Correction: Europe has a problem with hyper-accelerated, Silicon-Valley-style VC-fueled entrepreneurship. I see a lot of bootstrapped/slower-growth entrepreneurship in Europe, and that is in no danger of going away.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  The problem is that the US also have those and so Europe is still lacking. It's a pretty big problem that none of the large tech companies wether social media, search, robotics and so on are built in Europe.
  - bad_user 10y ago
    Facebook is cannibalizing all social media and Google is cannibalizing all search. Those markets are practically gone, there isn't much room for a second place and there's definitely no room for a third place. That VCs keep pumping money in such startups, well, that goes to show how irrational the ecosystem is.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      VCs aren't pumping money in to neither Facebook or Google, not sure what you are talking about.
      - bad_user 10y ago
        We probably speak different English languages, because that's not what I said.
  - kayuri 10y ago
    How about Spotify or Dailymotion? There are some.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      Of course there are some, but very few.
budu3 10y ago
> crippling effect of the harmonization of the EU Could you please elaborate on this? I am genuinely curious to know more.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  The best way I can elaborate is this essay I wrote last year http://000fff.org/why-is-europe-failing-to-create-more-unicorns/ http://000fff.org/why-is-europe-failing-to-create-more-unico... The TL;DR of parts of my theory is that harmonization is trying to solve a lot of problems politically which might as well be solved by startups and technology. Furthermore when you harmonize things you end up turning things that might be a problem in one country a law in a country where it isn't. Sometimes it's good sometimes thats bad. But it's not without problems. It's a complex issue and I don't claim to have a bullet proof theory but I think there is something to it.
flamedoge 10y ago
> in my mind crippling effect of the harmonization of the EU Is it time for #Denexit?
msiebuhr 10y ago
(Hej; fellow Dane here!) > Zendesk is also Danish originally, Tradeshift is, Podio.. they all end up leaving because the market opportunity in Denmark is very small (6mio) and there isn't easy enough access to talent when you need to scale up Podio mostly had a sales-office in SF; most development was in Copenhagen (until Citrix moved most of it to North Carolina half a year back or so) While I'm not aware of their legal statuses, both Zendesk and Tradeshift has non-trivial amounts of development in Copenhagen. Realm moved (and was part of Ycombinator, even) and then moved back to Copenhagen. Falcon.io always had most of their development in Copenhagen and only really moved sales elsewhere. It generally seem to me that they take a few semesters stateside to get known/funding/... and them move back. I've heard access to talent, employee mentality and "founders' wanted kids to grow up sane" amongst reasons for moving wholly/partially back.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Of course there are examples of starups who keep their HQ in Denmark. But the fact remains that most who go big aren't. Podio is now a US company not a Danish one. Tradeshift CEO has a kid and live in SF. Zendesk is US. Skype was never even Danish and was bought by US company twice. And when Danish startups gets bought it's mostly by US companies. Universal Robot got sold to a US company. Even Rocket Internet mostly successful deals was selling to US companies. The idea that they just take a few semesters is wrong and it's missing the point. Where are all the European companies who buy american startups? Where are the Danish companies who buy Danish or European startups? There is a general lack of activity in the European startup scene. It's not that it's not possible it's just that it's very unlikely to make it.

uola 10y ago

It's not really unexpected. The road to success was paved a decade or two ago. Stockholm has very few "random" successful startup, it's pretty much all things that Sweden has been traditionally good at. Creative industries (music, games, ads) and infrastructure (telecom, databases, payments).

ThomPete 10y ago
Yeah and for it's size Denmark is doing pretty good. The problem is Europe in general.

ced 10y ago

there isn't easy enough access to talent when you need to scale up Isn't it harder/costlier to find talent in highly competitive SV than it is in Europe?

MyNameIsFred 10y ago
That's what I would figure, as well. My company moved to Seattle when we needed to expand and hire talent. Still a tech culture, but houses are still in the 6-digit range, and you don't have to pay $200k/year for a fresh graduate with a degree from CodeAcademy.
- hobo_mark 10y ago
  Maybe you mean a certificate, but they don't even give that.
  - MyNameIsFred 10y ago
    It was a (lousy) joke.
baddox 10y ago
Sure, but in both places the labor prices are (roughly) market prices.
- eru 10y ago
  How could they not be?
mathattack 10y ago
It is hard, but when you're an "It" company in hypergrowth it's the only place to be. When you're 20 people, it's easier being in a small city and just finding the best talent available. It's much harder to scale like Google/Facebook/Yahoo elsewhere. (It's possible in Seattle/NY/Boston/Austin, just tougher at the hypergrowth moment)

sangnoir 10y ago

> Europe in general have a problem with entrepreneurship Correction: Europe has a problem with hyper-accelerated, Silicon-Valley-style VC-fueled entrepreneurship. I see a lot of bootstrapped/slower-growth entrepreneurship in Europe, and that is in no danger of going away.

ThomPete 10y ago
The problem is that the US also have those and so Europe is still lacking. It's a pretty big problem that none of the large tech companies wether social media, search, robotics and so on are built in Europe.
- bad_user 10y ago
  Facebook is cannibalizing all social media and Google is cannibalizing all search. Those markets are practically gone, there isn't much room for a second place and there's definitely no room for a third place. That VCs keep pumping money in such startups, well, that goes to show how irrational the ecosystem is.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    VCs aren't pumping money in to neither Facebook or Google, not sure what you are talking about.
    - bad_user 10y ago
      We probably speak different English languages, because that's not what I said.
- kayuri 10y ago
  How about Spotify or Dailymotion? There are some.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    Of course there are some, but very few.

budu3 10y ago

> crippling effect of the harmonization of the EU Could you please elaborate on this? I am genuinely curious to know more.

ThomPete 10y ago
The best way I can elaborate is this essay I wrote last year http://000fff.org/why-is-europe-failing-to-create-more-unicorns/ http://000fff.org/why-is-europe-failing-to-create-more-unico... The TL;DR of parts of my theory is that harmonization is trying to solve a lot of problems politically which might as well be solved by startups and technology. Furthermore when you harmonize things you end up turning things that might be a problem in one country a law in a country where it isn't. Sometimes it's good sometimes thats bad. But it's not without problems. It's a complex issue and I don't claim to have a bullet proof theory but I think there is something to it.

flamedoge 10y ago

> in my mind crippling effect of the harmonization of the EU Is it time for #Denexit?

msiebuhr 10y ago

(Hej; fellow Dane here!) > Zendesk is also Danish originally, Tradeshift is, Podio.. they all end up leaving because the market opportunity in Denmark is very small (6mio) and there isn't easy enough access to talent when you need to scale up Podio mostly had a sales-office in SF; most development was in Copenhagen (until Citrix moved most of it to North Carolina half a year back or so) While I'm not aware of their legal statuses, both Zendesk and Tradeshift has non-trivial amounts of development in Copenhagen. Realm moved (and was part of Ycombinator, even) and then moved back to Copenhagen. Falcon.io always had most of their development in Copenhagen and only really moved sales elsewhere. It generally seem to me that they take a few semesters stateside to get known/funding/... and them move back. I've heard access to talent, employee mentality and "founders' wanted kids to grow up sane" amongst reasons for moving wholly/partially back.

ThomPete 10y ago
Of course there are examples of starups who keep their HQ in Denmark. But the fact remains that most who go big aren't. Podio is now a US company not a Danish one. Tradeshift CEO has a kid and live in SF. Zendesk is US. Skype was never even Danish and was bought by US company twice. And when Danish startups gets bought it's mostly by US companies. Universal Robot got sold to a US company. Even Rocket Internet mostly successful deals was selling to US companies. The idea that they just take a few semesters is wrong and it's missing the point. Where are all the European companies who buy american startups? Where are the Danish companies who buy Danish or European startups? There is a general lack of activity in the European startup scene. It's not that it's not possible it's just that it's very unlikely to make it.