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WhatsApp Blocking Encrypted Calls to All Saudi Numbers
- Torgo 10y agoMaybe they know it's going to be blocked anyway, and they are avoiding getting into the cat and mouse game of trying constantly new ways to get around it and are just telling the user they're not even going to try. It's not ratting anybody out, it's not being complicit with anybody, it's simply saying it's not even going to try to encrypt. It sucks, but you know who to blame? The Saudi government.
- CiPHPerCoder 10y agoI'd be interested in hearing WhatsApp's response to this. Or moxie's, for that matter. He's been contacted by the Saudi government before and publicly turned down their offers to be complicit in their human rights violations. (He also wrote the encryption that WhatsApp uses.) https://moxie.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/ https://moxie.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/ More importantly, can anyone independently verify this? :)
- Raed667 10y agoVerification is not that complicated. 1- Find someone outside of KSA with a +966 number 2- Try 3- See if it works
- moxie 10y agoI have no special insight, but it's a fact that SA drops VoIP traffic. The UX for that is pretty bad, calls fail to connect by timing out after 5min or whatever, and people are left trying over and over again or waiting around hoping the call will connect. I think it could make sense to short circuit that process and display an immediate error to the caller that lets them know this call just isn't going to work. The author's suggestion that it's impossible for SA to block VoIP without blocking messaging is incorrect.
- united893 10y agoThey're simply providing a better user experience. The Saudis blocked encrypted calls, and users would have wait staring at frustrating repeated timeouts and long 'connecting' hangs. Therefore Whatsapp simply said OK, let's just improve the users experience by giving them an immediate error informing them.
- captainmuon 10y agoCouldn't someone with WhatsApp/Facebook's resources find a way around the blockage? Write a bunch of different protocols and switch randomly - or use steganography - use machine learning to evade the block - buy a bunch of existing apps and hide the data in their protocols - put up a fake weak encryption, detect "dissident" talk, and in that case generate a long nonsense recording for the censors from the voices of the speakers, hiding the true message steganographically :-) - or basically anything they can come up with. Or - Saudi Arabia is not such a big market - make a complete theatric fuss about it and complain about human rights and so on, close all FB and WhatsApp connections and burn all bridges, and milk it for publicity. (Only being half serious here :-) but I would be really tempted to do something mischievous in their case rather than comply.)
- fenesiistvan 10y agoThere are already software specialized for this such as the mizu VoIP tunneling and encryption which works with the SIP/RTP protocols: https://www.mizu-voip.com/Software/VoIPTunnel.aspx https://www.mizu-voip.com/Software/VoIPTunnel.aspx
- dreamfactory2 10y agoGovernments and companies are very much on the same team these days (think of it as a one party state with occasional internal disagreements and manouverings) - so there won't be anything 'mischievous' going on from those quarters
- dmix 10y ago_insert quote about the simpler explanation being far more likely than a nefarious one here_
- subliminalpanda 10y agoWhatApp does the same for UAE numbers. If I initiate a call to my sister who lives in UAE I get an error saying that "Whatsapp calling is unavailable in the UAE" or something along those lines. We worked around it by installing Signal, but she needs a VPN to be able to access it since it's completely blocked in the UAE (as well as Oman). We get around this by texting each other before hand on whatsapp with the keyword "vpn" and then talk to each other over Signal. Quite the hassle.
- Raed667 10y agoWhy not VPN all the time?
- subliminalpanda 10y agoThe always-on VPN on iOS can be flaky at times, especially if you try to use public wifis with captive portals.
- lorenzofb 10y agoDo you have screenshots of this error? If so, do you mind emailing me? lorenzo@motherboard.tv (I'm a reporter at VICE Motherboard, btw)
- jlgaddis 10y agoThe OP included a screenshot [0]. [0]: http://i.imgur.com/rQu9Ocf.jpg http://i.imgur.com/rQu9Ocf.jpg
- 616c 10y agoSame is true of Egypt as well, but I presumed that WhatsApp checks and knows when telcos were just blocking degrading their service in generally, not specifically for encryption. Quite ironically, I wonder if the Saudis remember Moxie at all ...
- jswny 10y agoI think it should be clear that the Saudi government are the ones who are blocking this type of encrypted communication. WhatsApp is just taking the handling of this blockage and integrating it into the app UX so that its users understand what the problem is.
- EdSharkey 10y agoThank you, WhatsApp! Oppressive governments, especially ones that have lots of resources to torment their citizens, should not get to play with our toys.
- kajjffkk 10y agoAnd yet Zuckerberg is practically begging for Beijing to allow his apps in. In the PRC, censorship is an inextricable part of the deal.
- littletimmy 10y agoSaudi Arabia is one of the main US allies in the region. Millions of tax dollars go towards securing the Saudi regime every year through American military bases in the country.
- ZainRiz 10y agoSend tax dollars to dictators who execute people that ask for elections in order to support...democracy?
- Cyph0n 10y agoHow about the opposite: does WhatsApp also block calls to a phone registered in a foreign country but connected to Saudi WiFi?
- mankash666 10y agoGovernments threatening a blanket ban if they're cut off from eavesdropping? Ironic that Saudi is chairing there world's human rights office and denying an essential human right - right to private communication
- Al_Jazari 10y ago"However the only true solution that respects the human rights of Saudi users is to give them encrypted calls no matter the consequences, instead of downgrading them to using regular Saudi phone lines, which are tapped by a religious dictatorship." The British-found US-supported Saudi state and its regime is not a religious dictatorship. Geoff Simons described it best, IMHO, when he came up with title "Saudi Arabia: The Shape of a Client Feudalism" for his book. On an even fussier note, some people in the Arabian peninsula don't recognize the legitimacy of the state/regime. And they really hate it when they are referred to as Saudis. It's like calling Widerstand Germans Hitlerians.
- spacefight 10y agoThis case is a brilliant reminder to anyone working in deep packet inspection/blocking/filtering tech that your work negatively affects the safety of millions of people in such countries at once.
- s_q_b 10y agoThis case is a brilliant reminder to anyone working in fiber optics that your work negatively affects the safety of millions of people in such countries at once. But seriously, deep packet inspection is evil now? It's an extremely useful security tool.
- spacefight 10y agoWhy do you misquote me? Yes, it might be useful for some folks - it's really bad for others. People have died because of oppressive regimes targeting dissidents that way.
- s_q_b 10y agoIt wasn't a misquote. It was intentionally exposing the absurdity of the your argument. The idea that anyone working on technology that could be used for surveillance is morally culpable is flat wrong. People have died because of fertilizer and particle physics. It does not make chemical engineers or physicists evil.
- spacefight 10y agoYour argument reads to me as "people kill people not guns". Yea I know, morale is a difficult topic these days.
- s_q_b 10y agoThat's trite. Your argument is essentially "engineers at steel plants make steel, which can be used to make guns, which can be used to kill." At some point, the chain of causality is so remote that assigning unequivocal judgments of evil becomes logically absurd. Are port scanners evil now too?
- berns 10y agoAt some point Whatsapp will be banned completely. Otherwise what would prevent conversations using push to talk. I use it when my connection or the other's end one is unreliable. What's the difference?
- zeveb 10y agoTying an online messaging app to a phone number is fundamentally silly (attn Signal developers). Having phone numbers as one search item among many makes a lot of sense, but mandating a 1:1 relationship between phone numbers and app identities is like mandating a 1:1 relationship between horse stalls and automobiles.
- pfg 10y agoIt makes a lot of sense for mobile messaging apps, though, and that's what both Signal and WhatsApp are. Phone number == username is an implementation detail of Signal (the app) and WhatsApp and not something the protocol dictates. Other implementations could easily handle things differently.
- zeveb 10y ago> It makes a lot of sense for mobile messaging apps, though, and that's what both Signal and WhatsApp are. Phone number == username is an implementation detail of Signal (the app) and WhatsApp and not something the protocol dictates. Other implementations could easily handle things differently. An extensible solution would be to use URNs as usernames, with tel: (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3966 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3966) — or maybe sms: (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5724 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5724) — URNs, e.g. tel:+1-201-555-0123 or sms:+12015550123. Then anyone who wanted to could also register a client using mailto:jsmith@example.invalid. Even better would be to use opaque user identifiers (maybe using their own URI scheme …), with all the above used to search for other users. Combine that with a server-mediated privacy-preserving contact list search scheme, and you'd have a huge end-user benefit: persistent identities across multiple devices, freed of the tiedown to telephones. Heck, it might even form the nucleus of a smart PKI based on SPKI/SDSI, better than either the PGP Web of Trust or XPKI's lunatic trust-all-of-the-CAs-in-the-world-to-certify-everything-in-the-world model …
- samer66 10y agoThat is well known to many Saudis, you will have to create another account in the app to regain ability to make calls.