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Yeah, his discussion of the tritone was where any remaining sympathy or interest in his argument evaporated for me. His discussion of it is completely simplisti

Yeah, his discussion of the tritone was where any remaining sympathy or interest in his argument evaporated for me. His discussion of it is completely simplistic and not grounded in any way in the complex historical context of that interval. Listen to the opening of Debussy's "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnRC7tSX50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnRC7tSX50). Tritones everywhere: flute plays a melody that outlines a tritone (C# to G). In come the oboes and horns playing a tritone which is part of the A# 7th chord the harp outlines. Then a Bb dominant seventh, with horns and strings playing another tritone. Tritones abound until the music finally settles into the tonic nine bars later, and yet who would argue with the idea that this is one of the most beautiful openings in music? It's ironic that he likens works based on the tritone to McDonalds (!?). When I hear someone savage a work of music they've never heard, and describe the sound of an augmented fourth as "awful" and call any piece based around the tritone as "[not] natural or good or beautiful or true" I would suggest that person's musical taste is limited and simplistic, sort of the musical equivalent of the McDonald's hamburger.

squeaky-clean 10y ago
Beautiful piece, thanks for sharing. I probably would not have noticed how filled with tritones it is without it being pointed out. If you wouldn't mind me sharing an example which isn't nearly as beautiful :P . "43% Burnt" by The Dillinger Escape Plan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv8b6RPbnAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv8b6RPbnAc). It starts with an incredibly dissonant and jarring intro. Semitone intervals on distorted guitars to an almost unpredictable rhythm (there's a pattern, but it's not apparent in the intro). And the song doesn't really get any gentler from there. The last bridge before the outro is an aggressive halftone-wholetone diminished riff on the guitars and non-stop 16th note blast on the drums. Stop... And then... It comes back to that disgusting intro which loops until the track fades out. But now, it feels familiar, like home. And with each loop it sounds better. What started off sounding awful becomes comfortable in a different context.
- mazelife 10y ago
  I don't know The Dillinger Escape Plan too well, but I like that! It's funny, but I've noticed that as my musical tastes have broadened over the years, the line between what sounds "beautiful" and "ugly" has become considerably more blurry. I can still recognize particular harmonies as consonant or dissonant, but that mapping in my brain where consonant -> beautiful and dissonant -> ugly has started to really break down. One of the first times I noticed this was happening was probably 15 years ago, listening to Salomé by Richard Strauss. The last scene has this incredible dissonance, a polychord that's an A7 with an F# stacked on top: two chords that absolutely do not belong together in any diatonic piece of music.[1] When I first heard that I thought it sounded awful. Now it has a kind of strange beauty to my ears and is one of those musical moments that always sends a shiver up my spine. [1] Give a listen here if you like: https://youtu.be/Op1VoQXXARs?t=431 https://youtu.be/Op1VoQXXARs?t=431 I started the clip at 7:15, the chord comes in around 8:53 but that whole section is shot through which these ugly/beautiful sonorities.
  - squeaky-clean 10y ago
    That chord! I remember it from when I went down a long Wikipedia/internet rabbit hole reading about polychords. It's absolutely amazing how composers will use the chords to represent emotions or the personality of their characters. I think the line between beautiful and ugly has gotten blurrier for me too. Artistically, I don't actually think they're opposites anymore. One needs the other to be fully realized, otherwise it just sounds too plastic. I first got into really dissonant music around high school, I think mostly just in an attempt to be "edgy" and different. There's a lot of music that just tries too hard to sound heavy (I can't listen to like 99% of grindcore anymore. It just sounds like trying to piss of my parents). But I started finding things that used dissonance artistically and not just for shock, and I love it. Now the music that hits hardest and sounds "heaviest" to me aren't the songs that just shove abrasive sounds in your face as quickly and loudly as possible. But the ones with lots of contrast and empty space, and slowly building tension before slamming into something. You know what they say, if everything is loud, then nothing is loud. I'm listening to Strauss now because of your examples. I think I might have to go on a classical binge for the next week or so just because of this conversation!

squeaky-clean 10y ago

Beautiful piece, thanks for sharing. I probably would not have noticed how filled with tritones it is without it being pointed out. If you wouldn't mind me sharing an example which isn't nearly as beautiful :P . "43% Burnt" by The Dillinger Escape Plan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv8b6RPbnAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv8b6RPbnAc). It starts with an incredibly dissonant and jarring intro. Semitone intervals on distorted guitars to an almost unpredictable rhythm (there's a pattern, but it's not apparent in the intro). And the song doesn't really get any gentler from there. The last bridge before the outro is an aggressive halftone-wholetone diminished riff on the guitars and non-stop 16th note blast on the drums. Stop... And then... It comes back to that disgusting intro which loops until the track fades out. But now, it feels familiar, like home. And with each loop it sounds better. What started off sounding awful becomes comfortable in a different context.

mazelife 10y ago
I don't know The Dillinger Escape Plan too well, but I like that! It's funny, but I've noticed that as my musical tastes have broadened over the years, the line between what sounds "beautiful" and "ugly" has become considerably more blurry. I can still recognize particular harmonies as consonant or dissonant, but that mapping in my brain where consonant -> beautiful and dissonant -> ugly has started to really break down. One of the first times I noticed this was happening was probably 15 years ago, listening to Salomé by Richard Strauss. The last scene has this incredible dissonance, a polychord that's an A7 with an F# stacked on top: two chords that absolutely do not belong together in any diatonic piece of music.[1] When I first heard that I thought it sounded awful. Now it has a kind of strange beauty to my ears and is one of those musical moments that always sends a shiver up my spine. [1] Give a listen here if you like: https://youtu.be/Op1VoQXXARs?t=431 https://youtu.be/Op1VoQXXARs?t=431 I started the clip at 7:15, the chord comes in around 8:53 but that whole section is shot through which these ugly/beautiful sonorities.
- squeaky-clean 10y ago
  That chord! I remember it from when I went down a long Wikipedia/internet rabbit hole reading about polychords. It's absolutely amazing how composers will use the chords to represent emotions or the personality of their characters. I think the line between beautiful and ugly has gotten blurrier for me too. Artistically, I don't actually think they're opposites anymore. One needs the other to be fully realized, otherwise it just sounds too plastic. I first got into really dissonant music around high school, I think mostly just in an attempt to be "edgy" and different. There's a lot of music that just tries too hard to sound heavy (I can't listen to like 99% of grindcore anymore. It just sounds like trying to piss of my parents). But I started finding things that used dissonance artistically and not just for shock, and I love it. Now the music that hits hardest and sounds "heaviest" to me aren't the songs that just shove abrasive sounds in your face as quickly and loudly as possible. But the ones with lots of contrast and empty space, and slowly building tension before slamming into something. You know what they say, if everything is loud, then nothing is loud. I'm listening to Strauss now because of your examples. I think I might have to go on a classical binge for the next week or so just because of this conversation!