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All worldviews start with assumptions. Secular materialism relies on circular arguments as much as Christianity, they just explain less (see Orthodoxy by G.K. C

All worldviews start with assumptions. Secular materialism relies on circular arguments as much as Christianity, they just explain less (see Orthodoxy by G.K. Chesterton). The only difference is that materialists often refuse to admit their assumptions - which is why, as a Christian, I admire nihilists - they're not afraid to admit their axioms and follow them to their logical conclusions.

lisper 10y ago
> Secular materialism relies on circular arguments as much as Christianity No, that's not true. See: http://blog.rongarret.info/2015/03/why-some-assumptions-are-better-than.html http://blog.rongarret.info/2015/03/why-some-assumptions-are-...
- jonstaab 10y ago
  Really, only the last paragraph of that post are relevant here. Secular materialism and Christianits share reason in common. The difference between the two is their explanation of why it works, where it came from, and why it matters. That's where circularity starts to happen.
  - lisper 10y ago
    > That's where circularity starts to happen. No. This is what a circular argument sounds like: "The Bible is the Word of God, and we know this because it says so in the Bible." There is nothing like that in secular materialism. Secular materialism is a conclusion based on evidence. It might be wrong but it is not circular. And, BTW, if secular materialism is wrong, then the way to demonstrate that is to show evidence that it is wrong. And if you want to claim that secular materialism is circular then the way to show that is to show how it is circular (which you won't be able to do because it isn't) rather than just to say that it is with no supporting argument.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > Secular materialism is a conclusion based on evidence. No, its not. Secular materialism is an epistemology in which conclusions based on externally-verifiable empirical evidence are held to be the only justified claims of knowledge. > And, BTW, if secular materialism is wrong, then the way to demonstrate that is to show evidence that it is wrong. This rests itself on the assumption that secular materialism is correct (that is, it assumes tthat conclusions based on externally-verifiable empirical evidence are the only justified claims of knowledge.) > And if you want to claim that secular materialism is circular then the way to show that is to show how it is circular Secular materialism itself is not circular. The claim that secular materialism is true because it is not shown to be wrong within the epistemological framework which secular materialism defines is, OTOH, circular.
      - lisper 10y ago
        > Secular materialism itself is not circular. OK, but this is the claim I was responding to: "Secular materialism relies on circular arguments as much as Christianity," > Secular materialism is an epistemology No, it isn't. Secular materialism is "the theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena." (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Secular+materialism http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Secular+materialism) It is a falsifiable scientific theory. > The claim that secular materialism is true because it is not shown to be wrong within the epistemological framework which secular materialism defines is, OTOH, circular. But that's a straw man. You're right, that would be a circular argument, but that is not the claim that secular materialism makes. You are confusing secular materialism with science. These are not the same thing. Science is a set of assumptions, including the assumption that any theory that is at odds with evidence must be wrong. Secular materialism is a conclusion that follows from those assumptions plus the currently available evidence. There is no circularity. Science does not assume secular materialism. Science readily takes on board the possibility that dualism might be correct, that deities might exist, even that Jesus may have died on the cross to save us from everlasting torment in the afterlife. All of these theories are rejected not because they contradict scientific assumptions (which would be circular) but because they are at odds with the evidence. BTW, science does not claim that secular materialism is true. No scientific theory is ever true, merely the best available explanation at any point in time. Scientific theories are always subject to revision based on new evidence or better arguments. That's one of the big differences between science and religion: in science, the discovery and correction of mistakes is considered progress. In religion, it's heresy.

lisper 10y ago

> Secular materialism relies on circular arguments as much as Christianity No, that's not true. See: http://blog.rongarret.info/2015/03/why-some-assumptions-are-better-than.html http://blog.rongarret.info/2015/03/why-some-assumptions-are-...

jonstaab 10y ago
Really, only the last paragraph of that post are relevant here. Secular materialism and Christianits share reason in common. The difference between the two is their explanation of why it works, where it came from, and why it matters. That's where circularity starts to happen.
- lisper 10y ago
  > That's where circularity starts to happen. No. This is what a circular argument sounds like: "The Bible is the Word of God, and we know this because it says so in the Bible." There is nothing like that in secular materialism. Secular materialism is a conclusion based on evidence. It might be wrong but it is not circular. And, BTW, if secular materialism is wrong, then the way to demonstrate that is to show evidence that it is wrong. And if you want to claim that secular materialism is circular then the way to show that is to show how it is circular (which you won't be able to do because it isn't) rather than just to say that it is with no supporting argument.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Secular materialism is a conclusion based on evidence. No, its not. Secular materialism is an epistemology in which conclusions based on externally-verifiable empirical evidence are held to be the only justified claims of knowledge. > And, BTW, if secular materialism is wrong, then the way to demonstrate that is to show evidence that it is wrong. This rests itself on the assumption that secular materialism is correct (that is, it assumes tthat conclusions based on externally-verifiable empirical evidence are the only justified claims of knowledge.) > And if you want to claim that secular materialism is circular then the way to show that is to show how it is circular Secular materialism itself is not circular. The claim that secular materialism is true because it is not shown to be wrong within the epistemological framework which secular materialism defines is, OTOH, circular.
    - lisper 10y ago
      > Secular materialism itself is not circular. OK, but this is the claim I was responding to: "Secular materialism relies on circular arguments as much as Christianity," > Secular materialism is an epistemology No, it isn't. Secular materialism is "the theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena." (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Secular+materialism http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Secular+materialism) It is a falsifiable scientific theory. > The claim that secular materialism is true because it is not shown to be wrong within the epistemological framework which secular materialism defines is, OTOH, circular. But that's a straw man. You're right, that would be a circular argument, but that is not the claim that secular materialism makes. You are confusing secular materialism with science. These are not the same thing. Science is a set of assumptions, including the assumption that any theory that is at odds with evidence must be wrong. Secular materialism is a conclusion that follows from those assumptions plus the currently available evidence. There is no circularity. Science does not assume secular materialism. Science readily takes on board the possibility that dualism might be correct, that deities might exist, even that Jesus may have died on the cross to save us from everlasting torment in the afterlife. All of these theories are rejected not because they contradict scientific assumptions (which would be circular) but because they are at odds with the evidence. BTW, science does not claim that secular materialism is true. No scientific theory is ever true, merely the best available explanation at any point in time. Scientific theories are always subject to revision based on new evidence or better arguments. That's one of the big differences between science and religion: in science, the discovery and correction of mistakes is considered progress. In religion, it's heresy.