6 ms·

"Music theory" tends to be incredibly narrowminded and Eurocentric. Harmonic theory? Outside of Europe and European-derived forms, harmony is very rare. There a

by beat 10y ago

"Music theory" tends to be incredibly narrowminded and Eurocentric. Harmonic theory? Outside of Europe and European-derived forms, harmony is very rare. There are melodic traditions that do not use harmony, yet are just as traditional and sophisticated (Arabic, Hindustani, and Carnatic music all come to mind), and there are purely rhythmic traditions (various African, Arabic, central Asian, etc). And in the modern world, there is ambient, music built out of tone rather than rhythm/harmony/melody. Having studied and played several different traditions to varying degrees, one thing I've learned is that music is equally sophisticated everywhere. There's this idea that classical and jazz are more sophisticated than "folk" forms. It's BS.

mrob 10y ago
"Sophisticated" has no objective meaning, but not all music is equally complex. I mostly listen to techno. This genre has high timbral complexity, average rhythmic complexity, and almost no melodic or harmonic complexity. Compared to, eg. Beethoven's 9th, it's obviously artistically inferior. Despite this I find it more enjoyable to listen to.
- lucasnemeth 10y ago
  But if we see this in a more broad perspective, there is electronic music (not necessarily techno) that is as complex as Beethoven 9th. Specially if more avant-guarde electronic music is included, not just EDM.
aridiculous 10y ago
Perhaps I'm being a tad too pedantic in this followup, but can you elaborate further? It's difficult for me to square how every style of music is equally sophisticated. I'm taking sophisticated to roughly mean 'complex'. I'm not promoting classical music as superior to folk, but can we not reasonably say that a Bach fugue is more complex than Simon and Garfunkel? Using two Eurocentric examples to control for bias.
- the_cat_kittles 10y ago
  absolutely not, in the abstract. you are probably using harmonic and motivic ideas a metric of complexity. but whos to say you couldn't use timbral and dynamic qualities as the primary yardstick? in that case simon and garfunkel would "reasonably" be more complex.
  - beat 10y ago
    That's a good point. Musical styles are inherently rule-driven. There are certain givens that are very strictly limited. For example, every Bach piece, and every similar piece from other composers, is written in 3/4 or 4/4 time. For the most part, it's just a steady stream of eighth notes. European classical music is rhythmically crude and primitive. I spent a couple of years studying the frame drumming of the central Asian steppes with a good teacher. The concept of "time signature", a basic European idea, goes right out the window. If you're doing something best described as "17/16 with the occasional 13/8 counter-rhythm", you start to understand how crude European rhythm is. Yet it's actually easy to play! That's because it's not a "bar", it's a seqeuence of phrases that may be two, three, or four subdivisions long. Memorize the sequence and it's pretty straightforward. Likewise, equal temperament severely limits European melodies. Arabic and Indian music are far more melodically complex. But if you measure every other culture by the values of your own, they all look worse.
    - gjm11 10y ago
      > every Bach piece, and every similar piece from other composers, is written in 3/4 or 4/4 time. For the most part, it's just a steady stream of eighth notes. I can't disagree with the overall idea that traditional European classical music is pretty simple rhythmically, but the statement above is just flatly false. For instance, I have here a copy of the first book of the Wohltemperierte Klavier, Bach's big collection of preludes and fugues. Prelude no 3 is in 3/8. Prelude no 4 is in 6/4. Prelude no 8 is in 3/2. Prelude no 9 is in 12/8. Prelude no 11 too. Prelude no 13 is in 12/16. It's still all 2s and 3s in various combinations (though there's a little bit of 5/8 in Handel) and, again, I'm not disputing that this stuff is rhythmically much simpler than your central-Asian frame drumming. But it's also not all 3/4 and 4/4, nor is it just a steady stream of quavers.
the_cat_kittles 10y ago
in my slow and repeated discovery of essentially the same thing, i felt like i could understand a little more about the subtlety of racism and cultural ignorance more broadly. in its simplest form, ignorant people seem to judge other musics by the goals criteria of their own, which are just about never the same. its ironic because someone who is making this mistake hears the music as kind of missing the point, but really _they_ are missing the point. you can bet that if alot of people have been playing some kind of music for many generations, with lots of enthusiasm, then it has as much depth and sophistication as any other music with equivalent tradition. the problem might just be you dont know what to listen for.
ktRolster 10y ago
Outside of Europe and European-derived forms, harmony is very rare. It's not rare, but it has different forms than western music. Maybe the most common form is pedal, which can be heard in this Tuvan form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmo3fKeveo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmo3fKeveo Almost any time there are musical instruments accompanying singing, you'll get some form of harmony, like with this Japanese shamisen music: https://youtu.be/_k0wyAIkPhM?t=916 https://youtu.be/_k0wyAIkPhM?t=916 Native Australians have harmony that I would call pedal, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1pDPuetPdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1pDPuetPdg
- beat 10y ago
  Pedal tones aren't really the same as Western harmony. You can't transition from one key to another. The pedal is more like a consistent pitch reference. Likewise, countermelodies aren't necessarily harmony, although harmony is technically countermelody.
  - ktRolster 10y ago
    Pedal tones aren't really the same as Western harmony Nope, they're harmony, just not western harmony (as you said). You don't need a full tonic scale to get harmony.
kazinator 10y ago
One of my favorite music-related websites: http://www.22shruti.com/ http://www.22shruti.com/ From time to time I listen to an Indian radio station. The melodies are often strange; yet the pitches are so accurate and nuanced, and a sour note is scarcely to be heard.

by beat 10y ago

mrob 10y ago

"Sophisticated" has no objective meaning, but not all music is equally complex. I mostly listen to techno. This genre has high timbral complexity, average rhythmic complexity, and almost no melodic or harmonic complexity. Compared to, eg. Beethoven's 9th, it's obviously artistically inferior. Despite this I find it more enjoyable to listen to.

lucasnemeth 10y ago
But if we see this in a more broad perspective, there is electronic music (not necessarily techno) that is as complex as Beethoven 9th. Specially if more avant-guarde electronic music is included, not just EDM.

aridiculous 10y ago

Perhaps I'm being a tad too pedantic in this followup, but can you elaborate further? It's difficult for me to square how every style of music is equally sophisticated. I'm taking sophisticated to roughly mean 'complex'. I'm not promoting classical music as superior to folk, but can we not reasonably say that a Bach fugue is more complex than Simon and Garfunkel? Using two Eurocentric examples to control for bias.

the_cat_kittles 10y ago
absolutely not, in the abstract. you are probably using harmonic and motivic ideas a metric of complexity. but whos to say you couldn't use timbral and dynamic qualities as the primary yardstick? in that case simon and garfunkel would "reasonably" be more complex.
- beat 10y ago
  That's a good point. Musical styles are inherently rule-driven. There are certain givens that are very strictly limited. For example, every Bach piece, and every similar piece from other composers, is written in 3/4 or 4/4 time. For the most part, it's just a steady stream of eighth notes. European classical music is rhythmically crude and primitive. I spent a couple of years studying the frame drumming of the central Asian steppes with a good teacher. The concept of "time signature", a basic European idea, goes right out the window. If you're doing something best described as "17/16 with the occasional 13/8 counter-rhythm", you start to understand how crude European rhythm is. Yet it's actually easy to play! That's because it's not a "bar", it's a seqeuence of phrases that may be two, three, or four subdivisions long. Memorize the sequence and it's pretty straightforward. Likewise, equal temperament severely limits European melodies. Arabic and Indian music are far more melodically complex. But if you measure every other culture by the values of your own, they all look worse.
  - gjm11 10y ago
    > every Bach piece, and every similar piece from other composers, is written in 3/4 or 4/4 time. For the most part, it's just a steady stream of eighth notes. I can't disagree with the overall idea that traditional European classical music is pretty simple rhythmically, but the statement above is just flatly false. For instance, I have here a copy of the first book of the Wohltemperierte Klavier, Bach's big collection of preludes and fugues. Prelude no 3 is in 3/8. Prelude no 4 is in 6/4. Prelude no 8 is in 3/2. Prelude no 9 is in 12/8. Prelude no 11 too. Prelude no 13 is in 12/16. It's still all 2s and 3s in various combinations (though there's a little bit of 5/8 in Handel) and, again, I'm not disputing that this stuff is rhythmically much simpler than your central-Asian frame drumming. But it's also not all 3/4 and 4/4, nor is it just a steady stream of quavers.

the_cat_kittles 10y ago

in my slow and repeated discovery of essentially the same thing, i felt like i could understand a little more about the subtlety of racism and cultural ignorance more broadly. in its simplest form, ignorant people seem to judge other musics by the goals criteria of their own, which are just about never the same. its ironic because someone who is making this mistake hears the music as kind of missing the point, but really _they_ are missing the point. you can bet that if alot of people have been playing some kind of music for many generations, with lots of enthusiasm, then it has as much depth and sophistication as any other music with equivalent tradition. the problem might just be you dont know what to listen for.

ktRolster 10y ago

Outside of Europe and European-derived forms, harmony is very rare. It's not rare, but it has different forms than western music. Maybe the most common form is pedal, which can be heard in this Tuvan form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmo3fKeveo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmo3fKeveo Almost any time there are musical instruments accompanying singing, you'll get some form of harmony, like with this Japanese shamisen music: https://youtu.be/_k0wyAIkPhM?t=916 https://youtu.be/_k0wyAIkPhM?t=916 Native Australians have harmony that I would call pedal, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1pDPuetPdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1pDPuetPdg

beat 10y ago
Pedal tones aren't really the same as Western harmony. You can't transition from one key to another. The pedal is more like a consistent pitch reference. Likewise, countermelodies aren't necessarily harmony, although harmony is technically countermelody.
- ktRolster 10y ago
  Pedal tones aren't really the same as Western harmony Nope, they're harmony, just not western harmony (as you said). You don't need a full tonic scale to get harmony.

kazinator 10y ago

One of my favorite music-related websites: http://www.22shruti.com/ http://www.22shruti.com/ From time to time I listen to an Indian radio station. The melodies are often strange; yet the pitches are so accurate and nuanced, and a sour note is scarcely to be heard.