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I do know that (to the extent that it's true). I also know that not driving head-first into a truck that's turning across in front of the driver, or into a stat

by NamTaf 10y ago

I do know that (to the extent that it's true). I also know that not driving head-first into a truck that's turning across in front of the driver, or into a stationary car when the one in front of you swerves around it, is even safer than having the highest safety rating. Don't get me wrong - Tesla engineers are talented engineers. The culture of the company however is not suited to building mass-production cars. It's trying to put the Silicon Valley philosophy of rushing towards the future ahead of taking measured, reliably proven steps. You don't build buildings or car structures via an agile methodology using customer feedback. Waterfall-style approaches are used because hammering out the long tail of risk is important. Car software technology must necessarily be no different.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Yet there's little evidence that any other car company is holding their car-control software to any high standard. They don't release it (for peer review) because they regard it as valuable IP. Then when forced to like Toyota did in the case of the Camry, its found to be the biggest pile of irresponsible spaghetti code imaginable. So no, Tesla is not materially different in process. Perhaps in talent - Tesla has actual experienced programmers involved, instead of solely relying on junior folks for the bread-and-butter coding.
- danso 10y ago
  Do you have links that support the assertion that Toyota was "solely relying on junior folks for the bread-and-butter coding"?
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    No only my cultural experience with foreign engineers. Anybody over 25 still doing engineering/coding is considered a failure. Their career path includes management early. All the engineers I work with from Japan, Singapore, China are young and inexperienced. And they are only allowed to report success up the chain. Management is fed a constant diet of sweet crap.
    - danso 10y ago
      I won't argue with your assumptions because they fall in line with my (completely non-experience based) assumptions about that dev culture (and the fact that my Honda onboard app is such shit), but I had thought that something like autopilot would be outsourced to a specialty firm? http://fortune.com/2016/03/10/toyota-jaybridge-robotics/ http://fortune.com/2016/03/10/toyota-jaybridge-robotics/ > Toyota has brought onboard the entirety of the workforce at Jaybridge Robotics, an artificial intelligence software firm based in Cambridge, Mass. Obviously, it's extremely possible for experienced engineers to have their work be for naught when working for an incompetent overseer. And my intuition is that automotive engineering requires such a high amount of coupling and integrated behavior that you can't just outsource your AI to an expert firm and then tack it onto the finished car. But those are causes of failures that are separate from the aspect of auto software engineer culture that you mention, which could be incompetent for their own devices while not being the primary driver of failure when it comes to autopilot features.

by NamTaf 10y ago

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

Yet there's little evidence that any other car company is holding their car-control software to any high standard. They don't release it (for peer review) because they regard it as valuable IP. Then when forced to like Toyota did in the case of the Camry, its found to be the biggest pile of irresponsible spaghetti code imaginable. So no, Tesla is not materially different in process. Perhaps in talent - Tesla has actual experienced programmers involved, instead of solely relying on junior folks for the bread-and-butter coding.

danso 10y ago
Do you have links that support the assertion that Toyota was "solely relying on junior folks for the bread-and-butter coding"?
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  No only my cultural experience with foreign engineers. Anybody over 25 still doing engineering/coding is considered a failure. Their career path includes management early. All the engineers I work with from Japan, Singapore, China are young and inexperienced. And they are only allowed to report success up the chain. Management is fed a constant diet of sweet crap.
  - danso 10y ago
    I won't argue with your assumptions because they fall in line with my (completely non-experience based) assumptions about that dev culture (and the fact that my Honda onboard app is such shit), but I had thought that something like autopilot would be outsourced to a specialty firm? http://fortune.com/2016/03/10/toyota-jaybridge-robotics/ http://fortune.com/2016/03/10/toyota-jaybridge-robotics/ > Toyota has brought onboard the entirety of the workforce at Jaybridge Robotics, an artificial intelligence software firm based in Cambridge, Mass. Obviously, it's extremely possible for experienced engineers to have their work be for naught when working for an incompetent overseer. And my intuition is that automotive engineering requires such a high amount of coupling and integrated behavior that you can't just outsource your AI to an expert firm and then tack it onto the finished car. But those are causes of failures that are separate from the aspect of auto software engineer culture that you mention, which could be incompetent for their own devices while not being the primary driver of failure when it comes to autopilot features.