> And in general the justifications needed for torture would be so high that you would probably be able to convict without it It's so high that IMHO the only p

> And in general the justifications needed for torture would be so high that you would probably be able to convict without it It's so high that IMHO the only possible place for torture in a civilized legal system is as punishment for torture by someone acting in a position of authority; if you're at the point where the moral calculus favors torture, you give absolutely zero fucks about what happens to yourself afterwards.