5 ms·

If police had not used the opportunity to collect evidence on many others before closing the site then the paedophiles would have just dispersed before reorgani

by grpdn 10y ago

If police had not used the opportunity to collect evidence on many others before closing the site then the paedophiles would have just dispersed before reorganising somewhere else. In the long run I suspect that the total amount of child abuse material exchanged has been reduced.

Bromskloss 10y ago
Which brings us to the question of what harm is acceptable to inflict upon one person against his or her will, for the benefit of someone else, or perhaps for many other people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipeholm_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipeholm_experiments I'm not proposing an answer; I just want to see you all fight about it. :-)
- ikeboy 10y ago
  The people using the site would most likely be abusing kids anyway.
- J_Darnley 10y ago
  Okay, you want to see a fight? Sharing an image of abuse does not inflict more violence against the victim. What's the old line? "What they don't know can't hurt them."
  - ikeboy 10y ago
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/04/23/the-supreme-court-promises-child-pornography-victims-full-restitution-someday-how-long-is-that/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201... > Briefly, in around 1999, the victim, Amy, was raped as an eight-year-old girl by her uncle. The uncle was caught and convicted. Amy received psychological counseling and the uncle was ordered to pay the cost for her treatment up to that time, a few thousand dollars. By the end of her treatment in 1999, Amy was (as reflected in her therapist’s notes) “back to normal” and engaged in age-appropriate activities such as dance. Sadly, eight years later, Amy’s condition drastically deteriorated when she learned that her child sex abuse images were widely traded on the Internet. The “Misty” series depicting Amy is one of the most widely-circulated sets of sexual abuse images (i.e., child pornography) trafficked in the world. According to her psychologist, the global trafficking of Amy’s child sex abuse images has caused “long lasting and life changing impact[s] on her.” As Amy explained in her own, personal victim impact statement, “Every day of my life I live in constant fear that someone will see my pictures and recognize me and that I will be humiliated all over again.”
    - pestaa 10y ago
      > when she learned that her child sex abuse images were widely traded on the Internet But how? I'm not suggesting she actively looked for CP, but surfing the web casually won't get you anywhere near it.
      - DanBC 10y ago
        Her images were / are very widely distributed. The abuse started when she was about 4. She blanked some of it, but not all of it. Here's her victim impact statement: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20100202-impact-statement.pdf http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20100202-... She knew there were images because she remembers him taken the images. She knows they're on the Internet because of his prosecution. Her case had some important legal stuff, around restitution for victims from people possessing, but not creating, the images: http://www.texaslawyer.com/id=1202443241449?id=1202443241449&hbxlogin=1&slreturn=20160613103545 http://www.texaslawyer.com/id=1202443241449?id=1202443241449...
      - wccrawford 10y ago
        I'm guessing that her worst fear was realized: Someone saw the pictures and recognized her, and told her about them. I can't process the logistics of how that happened without the person getting arrested... Or how it could happen without a pedophile in the mix... But I can't think of any other way for her to find out. Edit: I suppose it's possible that the police found the images, managed to identify her, and felt it was their responsibility to inform her.
chongli 10y ago
That line of reasoning is very dangerous. The police have been successfully sued [0] in the past for using innocent people as bait to catch suspected predators. The argument that catching the criminal prevents future victimization does not excuse the act of allowing innocent people to be attacked without their consent. [0] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/jane-doe-wins-case-against-police-force-1.163867 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/jane-doe-wins-case-against-pol...
- grpdn 10y ago
  It's not an approach without drawbacks or ethical grey areas, that's for sure. Going by the article that OP submitted my personal take on it is that the police made an acceptable trade-off in that instance. Had my child been abused by somebody involved in that forum in between the police's initial infiltration of it and closing it down I'm sure that my feelings would be very different. That's an interesting case that you linked though, I'd be curious to read more details about it.
  - chongli 10y ago
    After a bit of Googling, I turned up this novel [0] by the Jane Doe who successfully brought the suit. As for the original ethical question, I believe the tradeoff is an utilitarian one. Personally, I find utilitarian arguments totally unconvincing because the measure of utility is subjective. People read about the murder of a stranger in the morning paper, finish their breakfast, and carry on with their day without a second thought; the murder had a miniscule effect on them. For the victim, on the other hand, the entire universe has been permanently destroyed, causing an infinite loss of utility. [0] https://www.amazon.ca/Story-Jane-Doe-Book-About/dp/0679312757 https://www.amazon.ca/Story-Jane-Doe-Book-About/dp/067931275...
    - grpdn 10y ago
      Thanks, I may well track down that book. I've never explicitly thought about the issue in utilitarian terms but it's given me something to think about.
- 10y ago
smoyer 10y ago
And with the abusers in jail, the amount of abuse would drop too.

by grpdn 10y ago

Bromskloss 10y ago

Which brings us to the question of what harm is acceptable to inflict upon one person against his or her will, for the benefit of someone else, or perhaps for many other people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipeholm_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipeholm_experiments I'm not proposing an answer; I just want to see you all fight about it. :-)

ikeboy 10y ago
The people using the site would most likely be abusing kids anyway.
J_Darnley 10y ago
Okay, you want to see a fight? Sharing an image of abuse does not inflict more violence against the victim. What's the old line? "What they don't know can't hurt them."
- ikeboy 10y ago
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/04/23/the-supreme-court-promises-child-pornography-victims-full-restitution-someday-how-long-is-that/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201... > Briefly, in around 1999, the victim, Amy, was raped as an eight-year-old girl by her uncle. The uncle was caught and convicted. Amy received psychological counseling and the uncle was ordered to pay the cost for her treatment up to that time, a few thousand dollars. By the end of her treatment in 1999, Amy was (as reflected in her therapist’s notes) “back to normal” and engaged in age-appropriate activities such as dance. Sadly, eight years later, Amy’s condition drastically deteriorated when she learned that her child sex abuse images were widely traded on the Internet. The “Misty” series depicting Amy is one of the most widely-circulated sets of sexual abuse images (i.e., child pornography) trafficked in the world. According to her psychologist, the global trafficking of Amy’s child sex abuse images has caused “long lasting and life changing impact[s] on her.” As Amy explained in her own, personal victim impact statement, “Every day of my life I live in constant fear that someone will see my pictures and recognize me and that I will be humiliated all over again.”
  - pestaa 10y ago
    > when she learned that her child sex abuse images were widely traded on the Internet But how? I'm not suggesting she actively looked for CP, but surfing the web casually won't get you anywhere near it.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      Her images were / are very widely distributed. The abuse started when she was about 4. She blanked some of it, but not all of it. Here's her victim impact statement: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20100202-impact-statement.pdf http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20100202-... She knew there were images because she remembers him taken the images. She knows they're on the Internet because of his prosecution. Her case had some important legal stuff, around restitution for victims from people possessing, but not creating, the images: http://www.texaslawyer.com/id=1202443241449?id=1202443241449&hbxlogin=1&slreturn=20160613103545 http://www.texaslawyer.com/id=1202443241449?id=1202443241449...
    - wccrawford 10y ago
      I'm guessing that her worst fear was realized: Someone saw the pictures and recognized her, and told her about them. I can't process the logistics of how that happened without the person getting arrested... Or how it could happen without a pedophile in the mix... But I can't think of any other way for her to find out. Edit: I suppose it's possible that the police found the images, managed to identify her, and felt it was their responsibility to inform her.

chongli 10y ago

That line of reasoning is very dangerous. The police have been successfully sued [0] in the past for using innocent people as bait to catch suspected predators. The argument that catching the criminal prevents future victimization does not excuse the act of allowing innocent people to be attacked without their consent. [0] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/jane-doe-wins-case-against-police-force-1.163867 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/jane-doe-wins-case-against-pol...

grpdn 10y ago
It's not an approach without drawbacks or ethical grey areas, that's for sure. Going by the article that OP submitted my personal take on it is that the police made an acceptable trade-off in that instance. Had my child been abused by somebody involved in that forum in between the police's initial infiltration of it and closing it down I'm sure that my feelings would be very different. That's an interesting case that you linked though, I'd be curious to read more details about it.
- chongli 10y ago
  After a bit of Googling, I turned up this novel [0] by the Jane Doe who successfully brought the suit. As for the original ethical question, I believe the tradeoff is an utilitarian one. Personally, I find utilitarian arguments totally unconvincing because the measure of utility is subjective. People read about the murder of a stranger in the morning paper, finish their breakfast, and carry on with their day without a second thought; the murder had a miniscule effect on them. For the victim, on the other hand, the entire universe has been permanently destroyed, causing an infinite loss of utility. [0] https://www.amazon.ca/Story-Jane-Doe-Book-About/dp/0679312757 https://www.amazon.ca/Story-Jane-Doe-Book-About/dp/067931275...
  - grpdn 10y ago
    Thanks, I may well track down that book. I've never explicitly thought about the issue in utilitarian terms but it's given me something to think about.
10y ago

smoyer 10y ago

And with the abusers in jail, the amount of abuse would drop too.