4 ms·

I am curious how effective this is at larger synfloods. Obviously when something hits near 1gbps, its game over for any server as that floods the uplink (assumi

I am curious how effective this is at larger synfloods. Obviously when something hits near 1gbps, its game over for any server as that floods the uplink (assuming a standard 1gbps hookup) How many mb/s or pps can this handle on a average server while still having the server be able to respond to legitimate requests? ( lets say a average server is a quad core, 3.5ghz , 8gb ram)

NetStrikeForce 10y ago
I believe nowadays DDoS defense has to be in depth: - Anycast to divide the attack among different datacenters - Multiple filtering devices with +10Gbps uplinks at the edge - Then things like SYNPROXY and this synsanity at the final servers My point being: I don't think asking how effective is synsanity against larger synfloods is a complete question.
- jgrahamc 10y ago
  Agreed. For the large SYN floods (X Mpps hitting a single machine) syncookie solutions don't work. What works is identifying the SYN flood itself and filtering it.
  - scurvy 10y ago
    Generating SYN cookies in Linux doesn't work well at those rates without help. That said, it's very possible. Solarflare cards are good at withstanding several million PPS SYN floods...provided you license and then extend their IP stack with the card. Many hardware load balancers can do +100M SYN cookies per second (assuming a proxy/gateway deployment instead of DSR). So SYN cookie solutions do work; they just don't work great on stock Linux. Edit: Add clarification about LB deployment. Won't work with DSR.
    - jgrahamc 10y ago
      That said, it's very possible. Solarflare cards are good at withstanding several million PPS SYN floods...provided you license and then extend their IP stack with the card. Agreed. We use Solarflare cards but we don't syncookie when we get a large flood. We identify the flood and drop it. There's little point firing back millions of useless SYN ACKs per second.
      - scurvy 10y ago
        Agreed. We use Solarflare cards but we don't syncookie when we get a large flood. We identify the flood and drop it. There's little point firing back millions of useless SYN ACKs per second. How do you know what to drop without SYN cookies? If the attacker isn't advanced, sure all the SYN's will look the same. What if the attacker is smart and the SYN's look legit and are spoofed? If you drop those SYN's, you'll run the risk of also dropping legit traffic if you don't use cookies.
  - helper 10y ago
    I don't know very much about defending against DDOS attacks. How do you identify a SYN flood and filter it without interfering with legitimate traffic?
- DanBlake 10y ago
  Speaking as someone who ran a very popular video chat service that had on average 5+ DDoS attacks a day, I can tell you that the vast majority of our attacks were under 1gbps in size. Usually the 'attackers' would use services you can rent on hackforums for 5-10$/week to 'boot' websites and people offline. Thats why I was asking about how efficient this was on a per-server basis and why I think a answer would be beneficial. Most DDoS attacks are not the multi-gig reflection attacks you read about and defending against those types of attacks is much more complicated. Regardless, I am not debating if ddos prevention has to be in depth or not. Im asking how efficient this is on a single server.
  - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
    Gotcha! thanks for your insights :)
- scurvy 10y ago
  Out of curiosity, why bother with SYNPROXY if your edge filtering device can weed out the SYN floods? Legit question, no trollo. Also, anycasting to deflect an attack is easier said that done. It works, but it takes a lot of work to get there, and you really have to be well coordinated and planned out.
  - theojulienne 10y ago
    Since SYN packets only contain a limited set of information, if the SYN packets have spoofed source addresses then it is very difficult for a device in the destination network to filter/mitigate a SYN flood, since they look like legitimate SYN packets from many different clients. That said, if it's a non-spoofed attack, then you can definitely filter them at the edge. For spoofed attacks, if you filter from multiple global POPs (as do many DDoS scrubbing services), you may be able to guess that a packet is arriving at an inappropriate POP given the source address, but even that will only let you filter a certain amount of the traffic. Because of that, you still need some level of protection at the destination server.
theojulienne 10y ago
For the most part, since synsanity is a subset of SYNPROXY, the performance benchmarks from this SYNPROXY slide deck (and other documentations) are still relevant: http://people.netfilter.org/hawk/presentations/devconf2014/iptables-ddos-mitigation_JesperBrouer.pdf http://people.netfilter.org/hawk/presentations/devconf2014/i... In general in the order of a hundred thousand PPS per core is easily possible, but it really depends how busy the server is, since it primarily comes down to how much CPU is being used to generate the syncookies instead of being allocated to the application.

NetStrikeForce 10y ago

I believe nowadays DDoS defense has to be in depth: - Anycast to divide the attack among different datacenters - Multiple filtering devices with +10Gbps uplinks at the edge - Then things like SYNPROXY and this synsanity at the final servers My point being: I don't think asking how effective is synsanity against larger synfloods is a complete question.

jgrahamc 10y ago
Agreed. For the large SYN floods (X Mpps hitting a single machine) syncookie solutions don't work. What works is identifying the SYN flood itself and filtering it.
- scurvy 10y ago
  Generating SYN cookies in Linux doesn't work well at those rates without help. That said, it's very possible. Solarflare cards are good at withstanding several million PPS SYN floods...provided you license and then extend their IP stack with the card. Many hardware load balancers can do +100M SYN cookies per second (assuming a proxy/gateway deployment instead of DSR). So SYN cookie solutions do work; they just don't work great on stock Linux. Edit: Add clarification about LB deployment. Won't work with DSR.
  - jgrahamc 10y ago
    That said, it's very possible. Solarflare cards are good at withstanding several million PPS SYN floods...provided you license and then extend their IP stack with the card. Agreed. We use Solarflare cards but we don't syncookie when we get a large flood. We identify the flood and drop it. There's little point firing back millions of useless SYN ACKs per second.
    - scurvy 10y ago
      Agreed. We use Solarflare cards but we don't syncookie when we get a large flood. We identify the flood and drop it. There's little point firing back millions of useless SYN ACKs per second. How do you know what to drop without SYN cookies? If the attacker isn't advanced, sure all the SYN's will look the same. What if the attacker is smart and the SYN's look legit and are spoofed? If you drop those SYN's, you'll run the risk of also dropping legit traffic if you don't use cookies.
- helper 10y ago
  I don't know very much about defending against DDOS attacks. How do you identify a SYN flood and filter it without interfering with legitimate traffic?
DanBlake 10y ago
Speaking as someone who ran a very popular video chat service that had on average 5+ DDoS attacks a day, I can tell you that the vast majority of our attacks were under 1gbps in size. Usually the 'attackers' would use services you can rent on hackforums for 5-10$/week to 'boot' websites and people offline. Thats why I was asking about how efficient this was on a per-server basis and why I think a answer would be beneficial. Most DDoS attacks are not the multi-gig reflection attacks you read about and defending against those types of attacks is much more complicated. Regardless, I am not debating if ddos prevention has to be in depth or not. Im asking how efficient this is on a single server.
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  Gotcha! thanks for your insights :)
scurvy 10y ago
Out of curiosity, why bother with SYNPROXY if your edge filtering device can weed out the SYN floods? Legit question, no trollo. Also, anycasting to deflect an attack is easier said that done. It works, but it takes a lot of work to get there, and you really have to be well coordinated and planned out.
- theojulienne 10y ago
  Since SYN packets only contain a limited set of information, if the SYN packets have spoofed source addresses then it is very difficult for a device in the destination network to filter/mitigate a SYN flood, since they look like legitimate SYN packets from many different clients. That said, if it's a non-spoofed attack, then you can definitely filter them at the edge. For spoofed attacks, if you filter from multiple global POPs (as do many DDoS scrubbing services), you may be able to guess that a packet is arriving at an inappropriate POP given the source address, but even that will only let you filter a certain amount of the traffic. Because of that, you still need some level of protection at the destination server.

theojulienne 10y ago

For the most part, since synsanity is a subset of SYNPROXY, the performance benchmarks from this SYNPROXY slide deck (and other documentations) are still relevant: http://people.netfilter.org/hawk/presentations/devconf2014/iptables-ddos-mitigation_JesperBrouer.pdf http://people.netfilter.org/hawk/presentations/devconf2014/i... In general in the order of a hundred thousand PPS per core is easily possible, but it really depends how busy the server is, since it primarily comes down to how much CPU is being used to generate the syncookies instead of being allocated to the application.