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Am I the only one that thinks people should be held responsible for their own choices? This argument is completely bogus. No driver in the nearby lanes is awar

by Draiken 10y ago

Am I the only one that thinks people should be held responsible for their own choices? This argument is completely bogus. No driver in the nearby lanes is aware the other driver is drunk, a bad driver or emotionally unstable. The entire idea of beta testing is to have your system on an "uncontrolled environment". The system has bugs, as any beta system does, and whoever uses it should be fully responsible for it. Yes, fully responsible. Tell me what's the difference between using a beta system and not caring (leaving hands off the wheel, etc) and drunk driving? On both situations the driver is choosing to put everyone at risk, nobody knows about the fact until after an incident and if there is an incident, who's fault is that? The beer company? The car company? If the driver assistance made cars crash because it ignored a command from the driver or something like that, then sure... it's 100% Tesla's fault. But clearly on all of these accidents the drivers were careless to the extreme by leaving hands off the wheel for several minutes. We can discuss if they should try to improve how they handle people that remove their hands from the wheel, but that doesn't change the fact that ultimately the choice to be careless was made by the driver, not the car manufacturer.

gkya 10y ago
"Tell me what's the difference between using a beta system and not caring (leaving hands off the wheel, etc) and drunk driving?" The latter is a clearly defined criminal offence whereas the former is currently unclear. While the driver is certainly liable for reckless driving, that the marketing seems to have suggested that the feature is usable, is a fact.
- Draiken 10y ago
  And does that remove the driver's responsibility?
  - UnoriginalGuy 10y ago
    Does it remove Tesla's responsibility? You're literally now comparing Autopilot to criminal offenses and asking if it should be allowed, seems like you're suggesting Autopilot should be illegal. Sure, drivers suck, this is a known bug in humans. I'd like to see Autopilot changed to counteract the human limitation rather than acting like humans should be perfect for a system to work. This is how you get into bad UI design ("it is NOT my UI that sucks, the users just don't understand it! Read the manual!"). Except in this case people can literally die.
    - gkya 10y ago
      What's criminal is abuse of autopilot, not itself. Just like with alcohol, drink whatever you like, just don't get behind the wheel.
  - gkya 10y ago
    No, certainly. The responsibility is shared, Tesla liable for a sub par product (that is autopilot, not the whole car) abd driver for what boils down to reckless driving. Though I want to note that I'm not familiar with the US legislation on traffic.
throwaway7767 10y ago
Comparing this to a drunk driver is not relevant, as driving drunk is already illegal, whereas autopilot is not. > We can discuss if they should try to improve how they handle people that remove their hands from the wheel, but that doesn't change the fact that ultimately the choice to be careless was made by the driver, not the car manufacturer. Yes, the driver is to blame for that, just as tesla is to blame for allowing that to happen in the first place. They have sensors to detect whether the driver has his hands on the wheel, and yet they allow the vehicle to keep going for minutes in a situation it can't control. There's plenty of blame to go around.
a3n 10y ago
For drunk driving and nearby drivers, the drunk driver didn't sign an acknowledgement that he's aware of the hazards of driving drunk and did it anyway. Signing an acknowledgement means there's something to acknowledge, like "we're not totally done with this." Any driver on the road can reasonably expect that any nearby car was sold fully functional. The truck that the one Tesla crashed into was not (I believe) injured, although the truck's owner experienced property damage caused by Tesla (my opinion). The truck driver could have been injured or killed. If it hadn't been a truck, it could have been a white mini-van, and there almost certainly would have been injuries or deaths. This think belongs on a test track, not crawling up my bumper.
darpa_escapee 10y ago
If you serve alcohol to a person and they're intoxicated enough to be a danger on the road, you can be held liable for failing to stop them from operating a vehicle if they harm themselves or others. It is your responsibility to cut them off and find them alternate transportation. It is also the fault of the intoxicated driver, but fault doesn't end there. Similarly, if you provide and advertise an Autopilot feature that isn't autopilot, it is your responsibility to ensure the driver is attentive, has their hands on the wheel and that you pushed a not-broken implementation to them. Other manufacturers have done this, yet Tesla hasn't.

by Draiken 10y ago

gkya 10y ago

"Tell me what's the difference between using a beta system and not caring (leaving hands off the wheel, etc) and drunk driving?" The latter is a clearly defined criminal offence whereas the former is currently unclear. While the driver is certainly liable for reckless driving, that the marketing seems to have suggested that the feature is usable, is a fact.

Draiken 10y ago
And does that remove the driver's responsibility?
- UnoriginalGuy 10y ago
  Does it remove Tesla's responsibility? You're literally now comparing Autopilot to criminal offenses and asking if it should be allowed, seems like you're suggesting Autopilot should be illegal. Sure, drivers suck, this is a known bug in humans. I'd like to see Autopilot changed to counteract the human limitation rather than acting like humans should be perfect for a system to work. This is how you get into bad UI design ("it is NOT my UI that sucks, the users just don't understand it! Read the manual!"). Except in this case people can literally die.
  - gkya 10y ago
    What's criminal is abuse of autopilot, not itself. Just like with alcohol, drink whatever you like, just don't get behind the wheel.
- gkya 10y ago
  No, certainly. The responsibility is shared, Tesla liable for a sub par product (that is autopilot, not the whole car) abd driver for what boils down to reckless driving. Though I want to note that I'm not familiar with the US legislation on traffic.

throwaway7767 10y ago

Comparing this to a drunk driver is not relevant, as driving drunk is already illegal, whereas autopilot is not. > We can discuss if they should try to improve how they handle people that remove their hands from the wheel, but that doesn't change the fact that ultimately the choice to be careless was made by the driver, not the car manufacturer. Yes, the driver is to blame for that, just as tesla is to blame for allowing that to happen in the first place. They have sensors to detect whether the driver has his hands on the wheel, and yet they allow the vehicle to keep going for minutes in a situation it can't control. There's plenty of blame to go around.

a3n 10y ago

For drunk driving and nearby drivers, the drunk driver didn't sign an acknowledgement that he's aware of the hazards of driving drunk and did it anyway. Signing an acknowledgement means there's something to acknowledge, like "we're not totally done with this." Any driver on the road can reasonably expect that any nearby car was sold fully functional. The truck that the one Tesla crashed into was not (I believe) injured, although the truck's owner experienced property damage caused by Tesla (my opinion). The truck driver could have been injured or killed. If it hadn't been a truck, it could have been a white mini-van, and there almost certainly would have been injuries or deaths. This think belongs on a test track, not crawling up my bumper.

darpa_escapee 10y ago

If you serve alcohol to a person and they're intoxicated enough to be a danger on the road, you can be held liable for failing to stop them from operating a vehicle if they harm themselves or others. It is your responsibility to cut them off and find them alternate transportation. It is also the fault of the intoxicated driver, but fault doesn't end there. Similarly, if you provide and advertise an Autopilot feature that isn't autopilot, it is your responsibility to ensure the driver is attentive, has their hands on the wheel and that you pushed a not-broken implementation to them. Other manufacturers have done this, yet Tesla hasn't.