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> I'm not going to explain the individual job functions of 50 people Good thing I didn't ask you to. > It says they had 3 product managers Seems like a lot o

by PeCaN 10y ago

> I'm not going to explain the individual job functions of 50 people Good thing I didn't ask you to. > It says they had 3 product managers Seems like a lot of product managers for a company with one product which isn't especially complicated. Smells like a sign of hiring really fast to try to grow. > I would guess this means 8-10 engineers The fuck do they even do? You don't need that many people to make something like Vine. Unless I'm missing something and there's more to the service than the video-related social CRUD app? > You've then got a [bunch of dept heads] Eh, I can see those I guess. > Now we've got […snip handwaving about team sizes and numbers…] over 40 people easily. OK. > help centre and customer support Yeah pretty sure Vine doesn't have a custom support team. > ops [and] IT support If they're managing their own servers that would add a lot of overhead I suppose. If they're just running off EC2 or Linode or whatever then there's not a whole lot of staff there. > Does that all make sense now? No. > there are a lot of specialized roles to keep something with 25-30 million active users a month running smoothly I think it takes more people to work out a revenue model for Vine than to sustain 25-30 million active users. --- Basically, bullshit. In Vine's case, you really don't need a big engineering team, which means you don't need a lot of people to manage your engineering team. I find it much more likely that Vine hired a bunch of people (engineers and otherwise) with VC money when they were growing fast.

timcederman 10y ago
If you think you can come run a team more leanly and successfully, I invite you to come do it - clearly, if there is a market inefficiency here you could reap the rewards.
- bmon 10y ago
  This kind of reply isn't really that constructive, the guy raised some fair points... A lot of smaller companies and startups seem to do incredibly well with not even 10 employees, let alone 50. I understand there's more to running a company than meets the eye, but I really do wonder if all 50 people spend their days at vine being productive.
  - somebehemoth 10y ago
    Please name a company of 10 people that manages a user base in the tens of millions with similar technical requirements as Vine (bandwidth, storage, etc). If such a company exists I believe it would be an outlier.
- madgar 10y ago
  Are you really so blinded by free-market ideology that you think one company having bloated headcount makes room for a direct competitor in their product space? You believe in a perfectly efficient market and don't believe in the existence of barriers to entry?
  - timcederman 10y ago
    But this isn't one bloated company - this is a normal size and ratio of folks for this type of product. There will always be outliers - and in particular extremely small teams that can have outsized success, just as you'll also see behemoths not doing much (e.g. monster.com, 4,000 employees).
    - madgar 10y ago
      My point is that your sarcasm was laughably bad. You came off like you genuinely believe that any perceived weakness makes room for a new company. Which is something people genuinely believe on this website. If you want to make an effective point with sarcasm, you need to stay a bit more grounded.
      - timcederman 10y ago
        Based on what PeCaN said, it seems he/she thinks that Vine is an anomaly, and uses a vast amount of resources compared to what is required. I believe they are perfectly normal, and if anything are slightly on the leaner side of average. If PeCaN is right, and I'm wrong, then he/she should be starting a company much more efficient than the average, and benefiting from being that much more effective than his/her competition. There are plenty of opportunities out there - if someone like Vine is bloated, then surely PeCaN could be a consultant and not deal with barriers to entry, and still be wildly successful. There was no sarcasm.
        PeCaN 10y ago
        For what it's worth… I /do/ work for a very efficient company, and benefit from it relative to our competition. I'm not personally interested in Silicon Valley brogramming for social video sharing sites, but thanks for your confidence that I could dominate the market.
jsmthrowaway 10y ago
> If they're managing their own servers that would add a lot of overhead I suppose. If they're just running off EC2 or Linode or whatever then there's not a whole lot of staff there. The needed headcount in both cases is nearly identical as well as quite significant at Vine's scale and with their type of product, and your assumption otherwise is a pretty clear indicator that you don't have much experience managing an operations team. That's okay, not everyone does, but you should listen to those around you rather than assume you know best in this case. In operations it gets pretty tiring having engineers explain our role, strategy, and headcount to us, most particularly when this takes the form of criticism such as "you don't need a lot of [or have too many] people to do that," which comes off extraordinarily condescending and diminutive. The one thing that does not exist in all of computing, ever, from Joe's Web Design through Twitter and beyond, is a perfectly-staffed operations team. There is always more work than operators, and always "there are too many of you" sentiment. Always. Sizing operations is an inexact science but one which yields "too many operators" approximately 0% of the time. When your operators propose dropping GPUs in the fleet to mine cryptocurrency as an additional revenue stream, you might (might) have too many. But not until then. I'm trying to give you credit here that you mean well but the rest of your comment is somewhat suggesting that I shouldn't, so take it as you will, I suppose.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by PeCaN 10y ago

timcederman 10y ago

If you think you can come run a team more leanly and successfully, I invite you to come do it - clearly, if there is a market inefficiency here you could reap the rewards.

bmon 10y ago
This kind of reply isn't really that constructive, the guy raised some fair points... A lot of smaller companies and startups seem to do incredibly well with not even 10 employees, let alone 50. I understand there's more to running a company than meets the eye, but I really do wonder if all 50 people spend their days at vine being productive.
- somebehemoth 10y ago
  Please name a company of 10 people that manages a user base in the tens of millions with similar technical requirements as Vine (bandwidth, storage, etc). If such a company exists I believe it would be an outlier.
madgar 10y ago
Are you really so blinded by free-market ideology that you think one company having bloated headcount makes room for a direct competitor in their product space? You believe in a perfectly efficient market and don't believe in the existence of barriers to entry?
- timcederman 10y ago
  But this isn't one bloated company - this is a normal size and ratio of folks for this type of product. There will always be outliers - and in particular extremely small teams that can have outsized success, just as you'll also see behemoths not doing much (e.g. monster.com, 4,000 employees).
  - madgar 10y ago
    My point is that your sarcasm was laughably bad. You came off like you genuinely believe that any perceived weakness makes room for a new company. Which is something people genuinely believe on this website. If you want to make an effective point with sarcasm, you need to stay a bit more grounded.
    - timcederman 10y ago
      Based on what PeCaN said, it seems he/she thinks that Vine is an anomaly, and uses a vast amount of resources compared to what is required. I believe they are perfectly normal, and if anything are slightly on the leaner side of average. If PeCaN is right, and I'm wrong, then he/she should be starting a company much more efficient than the average, and benefiting from being that much more effective than his/her competition. There are plenty of opportunities out there - if someone like Vine is bloated, then surely PeCaN could be a consultant and not deal with barriers to entry, and still be wildly successful. There was no sarcasm.
      - PeCaN 10y ago
        For what it's worth… I /do/ work for a very efficient company, and benefit from it relative to our competition. I'm not personally interested in Silicon Valley brogramming for social video sharing sites, but thanks for your confidence that I could dominate the market.

jsmthrowaway 10y ago

> If they're managing their own servers that would add a lot of overhead I suppose. If they're just running off EC2 or Linode or whatever then there's not a whole lot of staff there. The needed headcount in both cases is nearly identical as well as quite significant at Vine's scale and with their type of product, and your assumption otherwise is a pretty clear indicator that you don't have much experience managing an operations team. That's okay, not everyone does, but you should listen to those around you rather than assume you know best in this case. In operations it gets pretty tiring having engineers explain our role, strategy, and headcount to us, most particularly when this takes the form of criticism such as "you don't need a lot of [or have too many] people to do that," which comes off extraordinarily condescending and diminutive. The one thing that does not exist in all of computing, ever, from Joe's Web Design through Twitter and beyond, is a perfectly-staffed operations team. There is always more work than operators, and always "there are too many of you" sentiment. Always. Sizing operations is an inexact science but one which yields "too many operators" approximately 0% of the time. When your operators propose dropping GPUs in the fleet to mine cryptocurrency as an additional revenue stream, you might (might) have too many. But not until then. I'm trying to give you credit here that you mean well but the rest of your comment is somewhat suggesting that I shouldn't, so take it as you will, I suppose.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]