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I don't understand why Tesla is allowed to release a safety critical system on to the roads when it requires buyers to acknowledge its not-finishedness. They're

by a3n 10y ago

I don't understand why Tesla is allowed to release a safety critical system on to the roads when it requires buyers to acknowledge its not-finishedness. They're putting beta systems into an uncontrolled environment. No driver in the nearby lanes has been given that choice.

meddlepal 10y ago
This a thousand times. Why is this allowed? And then going the extra mile and calling it autopilot which has all kinds of connotations about not needing to give a fuck about what the vehicle does. Bad bad bad. Recall and remove the feature until it's ready for actual use. Don't put everyone else on the road at risk so you can beta test.
- mevile 10y ago
  It's already something other cars on the roads have. Tesla just did it on the cheap and Tesla gets more press because it's not a 100 year old car company and its founder is Elon Musk.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    Other cars require hands on the wheel at more frequent rates, as I understand it. There's no conspiracy. Everyone wants a good product out of Tesla. Sometimes that means additional pressure. 100 year old car companies have experienced plenty of pressure, and these days they anticipate the pushback. The difference between the companies is not how the press treats them, but how they handle and respond to adverse events. This article says it better [1] > At Ford Motor Company, executives told me about all the pushback they received when they introduced features we now view as standard. People resisted and feared seat belts, airbags, automatic transmission, automatic steering, antilock brakes, automatic brakes, and trailer backup assist. Ford does extensive focus groups on new features that push boundaries, holding off on introducing ones that too many people don’t understand. > Tesla doesn’t operate that way. When the company’s Autopilot software, which combines lane-keeping technology with traffic-aware cruise control, was ready last Fall, Tesla pushed it out to its customers overnight in a software update. Suddenly, Tesla cars could steer and drive themselves. The feature lives in a legal gray area. [1] http://fortune.com/2016/07/11/elon-musk-tesla-self-driving-cars/ http://fortune.com/2016/07/11/elon-musk-tesla-self-driving-c...
- gkya 10y ago
  Well, what I fail to understand (but do not find unbelievable) is how people dare leave their car's control to software just released. I'm sorry for all the incidents, think Tesla is to blame here, and would like electric to replace gas, so no cynicism intended, but that's just madness to me, the openness of people to alpha-test sth. that may easily cost them their lives. It's called autopilot, so what, while I admit it's bad naming, one should be responsible for their safety, before anybody else. On the other hand self driving vehicles should be a different class of vehicles that's aptly moderated by the govts. A road is a complex thing to be in as an AI backed vehicle, especially considering the lack of the communication and organisation systems used in naval and aerial vehicles.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
_Codemonkeyism 10y ago
"No driver in the nearby lanes has been given that choice." Exactly!
KaiserPro 10y ago
Indeed. I'm not sure of the legalities in the US, but in the UK I'd suggest that there are a few things that they'd fall foul of: o advertising standards, its not an autopilot o trading standards, not making a safe product/warnings [0] o death by dangerous driving [1] o driving without due care and attention [2] [0] There are layers of consumer protection that enforces things like no sharp edges, doesn't give off nasty vapours, does what the marketing says it does. [1][2] these are crimes for the driver. If you are found to have been driving in a reckless way, non concentrating, or not having hands on the wheel, that your fault as a driver. very large fine and time in jail. especially as the tesla has lots of sensors to prove what the driver was doing.
Draiken 10y ago
Am I the only one that thinks people should be held responsible for their own choices? This argument is completely bogus. No driver in the nearby lanes is aware the other driver is drunk, a bad driver or emotionally unstable. The entire idea of beta testing is to have your system on an "uncontrolled environment". The system has bugs, as any beta system does, and whoever uses it should be fully responsible for it. Yes, fully responsible. Tell me what's the difference between using a beta system and not caring (leaving hands off the wheel, etc) and drunk driving? On both situations the driver is choosing to put everyone at risk, nobody knows about the fact until after an incident and if there is an incident, who's fault is that? The beer company? The car company? If the driver assistance made cars crash because it ignored a command from the driver or something like that, then sure... it's 100% Tesla's fault. But clearly on all of these accidents the drivers were careless to the extreme by leaving hands off the wheel for several minutes. We can discuss if they should try to improve how they handle people that remove their hands from the wheel, but that doesn't change the fact that ultimately the choice to be careless was made by the driver, not the car manufacturer.
- gkya 10y ago
  "Tell me what's the difference between using a beta system and not caring (leaving hands off the wheel, etc) and drunk driving?" The latter is a clearly defined criminal offence whereas the former is currently unclear. While the driver is certainly liable for reckless driving, that the marketing seems to have suggested that the feature is usable, is a fact.
  - Draiken 10y ago
    And does that remove the driver's responsibility?
    - UnoriginalGuy 10y ago
      Does it remove Tesla's responsibility? You're literally now comparing Autopilot to criminal offenses and asking if it should be allowed, seems like you're suggesting Autopilot should be illegal. Sure, drivers suck, this is a known bug in humans. I'd like to see Autopilot changed to counteract the human limitation rather than acting like humans should be perfect for a system to work. This is how you get into bad UI design ("it is NOT my UI that sucks, the users just don't understand it! Read the manual!"). Except in this case people can literally die.

by a3n 10y ago

meddlepal 10y ago

This a thousand times. Why is this allowed? And then going the extra mile and calling it autopilot which has all kinds of connotations about not needing to give a fuck about what the vehicle does. Bad bad bad. Recall and remove the feature until it's ready for actual use. Don't put everyone else on the road at risk so you can beta test.

mevile 10y ago
It's already something other cars on the roads have. Tesla just did it on the cheap and Tesla gets more press because it's not a 100 year old car company and its founder is Elon Musk.
- studentrob 10y ago
  Other cars require hands on the wheel at more frequent rates, as I understand it. There's no conspiracy. Everyone wants a good product out of Tesla. Sometimes that means additional pressure. 100 year old car companies have experienced plenty of pressure, and these days they anticipate the pushback. The difference between the companies is not how the press treats them, but how they handle and respond to adverse events. This article says it better [1] > At Ford Motor Company, executives told me about all the pushback they received when they introduced features we now view as standard. People resisted and feared seat belts, airbags, automatic transmission, automatic steering, antilock brakes, automatic brakes, and trailer backup assist. Ford does extensive focus groups on new features that push boundaries, holding off on introducing ones that too many people don’t understand. > Tesla doesn’t operate that way. When the company’s Autopilot software, which combines lane-keeping technology with traffic-aware cruise control, was ready last Fall, Tesla pushed it out to its customers overnight in a software update. Suddenly, Tesla cars could steer and drive themselves. The feature lives in a legal gray area. [1] http://fortune.com/2016/07/11/elon-musk-tesla-self-driving-cars/ http://fortune.com/2016/07/11/elon-musk-tesla-self-driving-c...
gkya 10y ago
Well, what I fail to understand (but do not find unbelievable) is how people dare leave their car's control to software just released. I'm sorry for all the incidents, think Tesla is to blame here, and would like electric to replace gas, so no cynicism intended, but that's just madness to me, the openness of people to alpha-test sth. that may easily cost them their lives. It's called autopilot, so what, while I admit it's bad naming, one should be responsible for their safety, before anybody else. On the other hand self driving vehicles should be a different class of vehicles that's aptly moderated by the govts. A road is a complex thing to be in as an AI backed vehicle, especially considering the lack of the communication and organisation systems used in naval and aerial vehicles.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

_Codemonkeyism 10y ago

"No driver in the nearby lanes has been given that choice." Exactly!

KaiserPro 10y ago

Indeed. I'm not sure of the legalities in the US, but in the UK I'd suggest that there are a few things that they'd fall foul of: o advertising standards, its not an autopilot o trading standards, not making a safe product/warnings [0] o death by dangerous driving [1] o driving without due care and attention [2] [0] There are layers of consumer protection that enforces things like no sharp edges, doesn't give off nasty vapours, does what the marketing says it does. [1][2] these are crimes for the driver. If you are found to have been driving in a reckless way, non concentrating, or not having hands on the wheel, that your fault as a driver. very large fine and time in jail. especially as the tesla has lots of sensors to prove what the driver was doing.

Draiken 10y ago

Am I the only one that thinks people should be held responsible for their own choices? This argument is completely bogus. No driver in the nearby lanes is aware the other driver is drunk, a bad driver or emotionally unstable. The entire idea of beta testing is to have your system on an "uncontrolled environment". The system has bugs, as any beta system does, and whoever uses it should be fully responsible for it. Yes, fully responsible. Tell me what's the difference between using a beta system and not caring (leaving hands off the wheel, etc) and drunk driving? On both situations the driver is choosing to put everyone at risk, nobody knows about the fact until after an incident and if there is an incident, who's fault is that? The beer company? The car company? If the driver assistance made cars crash because it ignored a command from the driver or something like that, then sure... it's 100% Tesla's fault. But clearly on all of these accidents the drivers were careless to the extreme by leaving hands off the wheel for several minutes. We can discuss if they should try to improve how they handle people that remove their hands from the wheel, but that doesn't change the fact that ultimately the choice to be careless was made by the driver, not the car manufacturer.

gkya 10y ago
"Tell me what's the difference between using a beta system and not caring (leaving hands off the wheel, etc) and drunk driving?" The latter is a clearly defined criminal offence whereas the former is currently unclear. While the driver is certainly liable for reckless driving, that the marketing seems to have suggested that the feature is usable, is a fact.
- Draiken 10y ago
  And does that remove the driver's responsibility?
  - UnoriginalGuy 10y ago
    Does it remove Tesla's responsibility? You're literally now comparing Autopilot to criminal offenses and asking if it should be allowed, seems like you're suggesting Autopilot should be illegal. Sure, drivers suck, this is a known bug in humans. I'd like to see Autopilot changed to counteract the human limitation rather than acting like humans should be perfect for a system to work. This is how you get into bad UI design ("it is NOT my UI that sucks, the users just don't understand it! Read the manual!"). Except in this case people can literally die.