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Suppose you can achieve happiness with a wire to the brain. Is there a good argument against doing this?

by praptak 10y ago

chrischen 10y ago
It would short circuit your normal reward-action feedback loop. We don't live to trigger the reward, we are rewarded to live.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  So how does addiction work?
  - chrischen 10y ago
    Addiction works like that (what I said above). It's bad because it gives you no reason to do the stuff you'd normally have to do to stay alive or reproduce.
    - collyw 10y ago
      Rubbish, most smokers are addicted, and get on with life fine.
      - chrischen 10y ago
        Smoking is different from dopamine releasing drugs. Smoking's addiction mechanic isn't dopamine release. Dopamine is the body's natural pleasure signal and short circuiting that would cause the issues I mentioned.
        collyw 10y ago
        You seem to be changing your argument now. It was addiction that "worked like that" your comment.
freshhawk 10y ago
That depends. If your end goal is merely happiness then no, as long as you can still find a way to motivate yourself to eat, get enough physical activity to stay alive and provide yourself at least basic shelter and essentials. If your end goal isn't happiness but fulfillment or meaning or something else that will also trigger happiness then there's an excellent argument against doing that, since it will eventually become all you do or care about.
ejk314 10y ago
The same arguments against doing heroin?
- iheartmemcache 10y ago
  Heroin (and the fact that it's a scarce commodity due to legislation first world countries) has the self-harm potential (needles can be used by addicts so many times they actually snap/collapsed veins/'cotton fever') along with social negatives (shared needles=>increased rates of transmittance of hep C and other maladies, petty crime, prostitution (which is a-okay by me if regulated, but addicts who resort to sex working as a means to sustain their habit often are subjected to violent situations) organized crime/gang warfare due to the market effects of prohibition effectively making powdered heroin high purity being incredibly valuable in a fairly transportable form). Nasal consumption can lead to deviated septums, decreased nasal mucosa production, etc (not limited to heroin, habitual insufflation of cocaine exhibits the same effects). Smoking heroin off foil surely can't be good for ones lungs, though I'm not sure specifically what pulmonary effects it would yield. As long as electricity and the components/knowledge is commonly available, those sociological byproducts are more or less eliminated (though the self-injurious effects have analogous deleterious effects one could argue). Unlike heroin, where the side-effects are well-known (about two hundred years of opium usage in the west, ranging from laudanum in the 19th century among primarily the affluent women of society to Purdue's OxyContin(tm)). We know how mu-opioids are structured molecularly, the pharmacological behavior occurs as they bind to (primarily) mu-opioid receptors in the brain, etc). tDCS main risk factor is (as stated in the article) the fact that it's a fairly new science. Even if properly administered by trained neuroscientists/neurologists/technicians within the field, we're not aware of the long-term 10 year side-effects. The risks increase dramatically if an average Joe is half-informed and tries to administer (or modify) tDCS themselves.
  - wyager 10y ago
    If heroin was legal, safe, and free, I still wouldn't use it. The state I would be in as a heroin addict has a large negative value in my current utility function. This negative value is so large that it swamps the positive value of being happy all the time. I suspect this just means I'm not entirely hedonistic.
snowwrestler 10y ago
Are we talking about happiness or pleasure? A days-long orgasm might be an incredible physical experience, but I doubt the feeling would be the same as seeing my daughter walk for the first time, or achieving a long-sought personal goal.
pcmaffey 10y ago
Dependency. Unless you don't value independence.

Suppose you can achieve happiness with a wire to the brain. Is there a good argument against doing this?

by praptak 10y ago

Suppose you can achieve happiness with a wire to the brain. Is there a good argument against doing this?

It would short circuit your normal reward-action feedback loop. We don't live to trigger the reward, we are rewarded to live.

pavel_lishin 10y ago
So how does addiction work?
- chrischen 10y ago
  Addiction works like that (what I said above). It's bad because it gives you no reason to do the stuff you'd normally have to do to stay alive or reproduce.
  - collyw 10y ago
    Rubbish, most smokers are addicted, and get on with life fine.
    - chrischen 10y ago
      Smoking is different from dopamine releasing drugs. Smoking's addiction mechanic isn't dopamine release. Dopamine is the body's natural pleasure signal and short circuiting that would cause the issues I mentioned.
      - collyw 10y ago
        You seem to be changing your argument now. It was addiction that "worked like that" your comment.

freshhawk 10y ago

That depends. If your end goal is merely happiness then no, as long as you can still find a way to motivate yourself to eat, get enough physical activity to stay alive and provide yourself at least basic shelter and essentials. If your end goal isn't happiness but fulfillment or meaning or something else that will also trigger happiness then there's an excellent argument against doing that, since it will eventually become all you do or care about.

ejk314 10y ago

The same arguments against doing heroin?

iheartmemcache 10y ago
Heroin (and the fact that it's a scarce commodity due to legislation first world countries) has the self-harm potential (needles can be used by addicts so many times they actually snap/collapsed veins/'cotton fever') along with social negatives (shared needles=>increased rates of transmittance of hep C and other maladies, petty crime, prostitution (which is a-okay by me if regulated, but addicts who resort to sex working as a means to sustain their habit often are subjected to violent situations) organized crime/gang warfare due to the market effects of prohibition effectively making powdered heroin high purity being incredibly valuable in a fairly transportable form). Nasal consumption can lead to deviated septums, decreased nasal mucosa production, etc (not limited to heroin, habitual insufflation of cocaine exhibits the same effects). Smoking heroin off foil surely can't be good for ones lungs, though I'm not sure specifically what pulmonary effects it would yield. As long as electricity and the components/knowledge is commonly available, those sociological byproducts are more or less eliminated (though the self-injurious effects have analogous deleterious effects one could argue). Unlike heroin, where the side-effects are well-known (about two hundred years of opium usage in the west, ranging from laudanum in the 19th century among primarily the affluent women of society to Purdue's OxyContin(tm)). We know how mu-opioids are structured molecularly, the pharmacological behavior occurs as they bind to (primarily) mu-opioid receptors in the brain, etc). tDCS main risk factor is (as stated in the article) the fact that it's a fairly new science. Even if properly administered by trained neuroscientists/neurologists/technicians within the field, we're not aware of the long-term 10 year side-effects. The risks increase dramatically if an average Joe is half-informed and tries to administer (or modify) tDCS themselves.
- wyager 10y ago
  If heroin was legal, safe, and free, I still wouldn't use it. The state I would be in as a heroin addict has a large negative value in my current utility function. This negative value is so large that it swamps the positive value of being happy all the time. I suspect this just means I'm not entirely hedonistic.

snowwrestler 10y ago

Are we talking about happiness or pleasure? A days-long orgasm might be an incredible physical experience, but I doubt the feeling would be the same as seeing my daughter walk for the first time, or achieving a long-sought personal goal.

pcmaffey 10y ago

Dependency. Unless you don't value independence.