5 ms·

It's always a tragedy when political maneuvering gets in the way of good science, and you know, advancing the human race.

by Fej 10y ago

ckinnan 10y ago
The EU's retarding democracy and human progress; European growth is non-existent, the Euro is failing, and fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth. Britain has almost all of the world-class research universities in the European Union and they will thrive outside the EU. Edit with sources: EU real per capita GDP is flat after 10 years: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tsdec100&plugin=1 http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&l... Scope of direct bailouts (note some have been repaid): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Bailout_programs_for_EU_members_(since_2008) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Bailout_programs_for_... Expanding role of the ECB in bailouts: http://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/europes-qe-quandary http://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/europes-qe-quandary EFSM mechanism puts Eurozone member countries (not UK) on the hook: http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eu_borrower/efsm/index_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eu_borrower/efsm/index_e... Of the top 30 research universities 4 are British none are other EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Univ...
- vmateixeira 10y ago
  "...fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth" Source?
  - setra 10y ago
    If you loan people money and they don't pay it back you loose money...
    - vmateixeira 10y ago
      When is Britain loosing money? Regarding Portugal, all I can see is a really nice investment [1] and being paid back with [2]. Which means EU lenders are actually profiting. [1] http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-portugal-imf-repayment-idUKKBN0MF2CE20150320 http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-portugal-imf-repayment-idUK... [2] https://ycharts.com/indicators/portugal_long_term_interest_rates https://ycharts.com/indicators/portugal_long_term_interest_r...
    - x3c 10y ago
      Great. Now make the journey from here to there.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - karim 10y ago
      Not if they use your money to buy things from your country.
  - jerf 10y ago
    Every conversation we've had about the EU for the last five years or so. The entire world has been talking about the relative lack of wisdom of trying to hold the entire EU to one currency for a long time, financial mismanagement, Germany strong-arming Greece into plans not good for them while Greece holds the threat of leaving over the entire EU to get better deals, and all sorts of such financial issues for a long time now. Speculations that the EU was on the path to a breakup have been rampant for years, even before immigration issues were being discussed. Only now that the breakup might actually be happening is it a total surprise to everyone. (I'm surprised more people aren't celebrating Brexit. Before Brexit, the EU had all kinds of problems. Now suddenly they've all been solved, apparently. The selfless sacrifice of the UK should be celebrated by the EU, since apparently all the bad stuff is going to happen to the UK, alone. That's the problem with the "turn up the heat" approach to making people do things in politics; it may make people more likely to do things, but not necessarily the things you wanted.)
    - vmateixeira 10y ago
      I'm not saying that countries should or should not get out of the EU. I would just like to see some concrete evidences of Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugal on destroying German and British wealth.
      - jerf 10y ago
        You're setting a standard that can't be met by anyone. Any "concrete evidence" would have to provide concrete evidence of a hypothetical. But it isn't that bizarre of an idea that Germany could be better off if it wasn't tied to much weaker economies through a shared currency. Of course the problem here is that the situation is so large you can find not-quite-concrete evidence for almost any proposition.
        vmateixeira 10y ago
        Agreed, there is no "concrete evidence" and no way of supporting any of the sides. But let's just imagine for a while, what if it would be the exact same opposite? Who helps richest countries go richer? How can a country grow if there is no decrease somewhere else? Maybe a greater profit if you don't need to pay for a different currency? Edit: With help I mean get cheap labour, cheap goods, cheap rent and even being able to sell in that country's market and export abroad.
- m_fayer 10y ago
  That's a big list of hyperbolic and controversial positions. I normally don't demand citations, but in this case...
  - endeavour 10y ago
    See how far you have to scroll down the list to find an university inside the EU (excluding the UK). https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2016/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank_label/sort_order/asc/cols/rank_only https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...
    - iaskwhy 10y ago
      Saving you a click: #28 Karolinska Institute, Sweden. Also: "The Times Higher Education (THE), formerly the Times Higher Education Supplement (THES), is a weekly magazine based in London, reporting specifically on news and issues related to higher education. It is the United Kingdom's leading publication in its field."[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education
    - m_fayer 10y ago
      This list omits purely research institutions such as the Max Planck institutes, which as a whole are a behemoth: Also https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/the-titans-institutional-rankings-by-output-and-citations/408424.article https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/the-titans-institu...
      - programLyrique 10y ago
        And CNRS in France. The first British one is University College London, after Max Planck Society and CNRS. The Nature Index (http://www.natureindex.com/annual-tables/2016/institution/all/all http://www.natureindex.com/annual-tables/2016/institution/al... ) has CNRS 3rd, then the Max Planck institutes 4th, and the first British one, Oxford, is 7th.
- RhodesianHunter 10y ago
  > fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British The fact that Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual devalue the Euro below where a deutsche mark would be is a major component of Germany's success as an exporter over the last decade, and conversely those countries' inability to devalue their currency has caused them a great deal of pain.
- JohnStrange 10y ago
  Okay. Thanks for letting us know. I've always thought that dozens (or even hundreds) of governments from all political sides and from 28 different countries could not have gotten a project entirely wrong that they supported voluntarily for the mutual benefit of all member states during the past 40 years, but since you think otherwise I'll just take your word for it.
- iaskwhy 10y ago
  Many things could be said about it but today is a particular bad day to talk about the "EU's retarding democracy" as we, the UK, just got a new prime minister no one voted for...
  - cylinder 10y ago
    Since when do you elect Prime Ministers? You voted the conservatives into majority power and they're free to select their leader.
    - iaskwhy 10y ago
      Sure, you voted for the PPE and they're free to select the government. How's that for EU democracy working for you?
- 2skep 10y ago
  As a result of majority voters voting in favour of Brexit and to recover the democratic deficit and negotiate UK's exit from the EU a new PM has been appointed who did not support Leave. She was selected by Westminster which is largely supportive of Remain It would be very hard not to conclude that it is actually Westminster that is retarding democracy.
  - diego_moita 10y ago
    > She was selected Or, maybe, the only thing Brexiters know how to do with problems and responsibilities is to "exit"/run away from them? (e.g.: Johnson, Farage, Leadsom,...)
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      Slur on "Brexiters" aside, the government called a referendum - it has the responsibility of a plan. Otherwise, who foots the bill for such a plan?
      - diego_moita 10y ago
        > the government [...] has the responsibility of a plan Uh, .... are you implying the Brexiters never had a plan?
        Chris2048 10y ago
        No. There are no purposeful 'implications' in my comment, there are only explicit statements.
  - endeavour 10y ago
    I happen to agree we should have an election, but I would point out: 1) Unlike EU commissioners, people can vote Theresa May out at the next general election. 2) The UK has a parliamentary democracy. It is not a presidential system. Theresa May was elected by her constituents. 3) Of the 14 prime ministers since the end of the Second World War, half of them (including Theresa May) assumed office between elections.
- diego_moita 10y ago
  > Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth Just wait and see what "destroying wealth" means. England gave up on producing food during the Industrial Revolution, gave up on imperial colonialism after WWII and gave up on manufacturing after Thatcher. Now it is giving up on the services economy. It will be interesting to see what comes out of it. Edit: Britain is not a paragon of fiscal responsibility. The only reason it hasn't been punished by the markets is because the markets are, to a great extent, in London. Things will change a lot.
  - raugustinus 10y ago
    How is the UK giving up on the services economy?
    - diego_moita 10y ago
      There's plenty of evidence, the finance industry has been sounding loud alarms for some time. But the very fact that you ask is an evidence that people are deliberately deaf to them. So, the best answer I can give you is "wait and you'll see".
    - pjc50 10y ago
      Possible ending of free movement of people? Possible emigration of the finance industry because of that and because of loss of institutional "passporting"?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- DoubleGlazing 10y ago
  Growth non-existent? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this would suggest otherwise... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#Economic_growth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#...
  - ckinnan 10y ago
    Real per capita GDP was 26,200 euros in 2007 and is 26,300 today. After 10 years of EU policymaking and an extraordinary borrowing spree, nothing to show for it. http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tsdec100&plugin=1 http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&l...
    - tremon 10y ago
      That same table is showing a GDP rise from 23,400 to 26,200 between 2001 and 2008. Are those rises not attributable to EU policymaking then? In the same time period, US GDP rose from $49,979 to $51,486 [1]. But it shows the same drop as the EU figures: 2014 was the first year that GDP was higher than 2007 (the same in 2015 for the EU). Maybe there is a common factor that could explain the slump in both the US and EU GDP figures since roughly 2008? Or did EU policymaking also cause the US GDP to go down? [1] http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-per-capita http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-per-capita
- lottin 10y ago
  > European growth is non-existent Not according official GDP figures: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tec00115&plugin=1 http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&l... > the Euro is failing No evidence of that either. > fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth The UK government has one of the biggest deficits, as big as Portugal's actually. Only Spain and Greece are doing worse: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tec00127&plugin=1 http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&l...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
wangarific 10y ago
We have enough trouble overcoming the challenges of nature, we don't really need people making it harder for us.

It's always a tragedy when political maneuvering gets in the way of good science, and you know, advancing the human race.

by Fej 10y ago

It's always a tragedy when political maneuvering gets in the way of good science, and you know, advancing the human race.

ckinnan 10y ago

The EU's retarding democracy and human progress; European growth is non-existent, the Euro is failing, and fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth. Britain has almost all of the world-class research universities in the European Union and they will thrive outside the EU. Edit with sources: EU real per capita GDP is flat after 10 years: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tsdec100&plugin=1 http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&l... Scope of direct bailouts (note some have been repaid): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Bailout_programs_for_EU_members_(since_2008) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Bailout_programs_for_... Expanding role of the ECB in bailouts: http://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/europes-qe-quandary http://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/europes-qe-quandary EFSM mechanism puts Eurozone member countries (not UK) on the hook: http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eu_borrower/efsm/index_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eu_borrower/efsm/index_e... Of the top 30 research universities 4 are British none are other EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Univ...

vmateixeira 10y ago
"...fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth" Source?
- setra 10y ago
  If you loan people money and they don't pay it back you loose money...
  - vmateixeira 10y ago
    When is Britain loosing money? Regarding Portugal, all I can see is a really nice investment [1] and being paid back with [2]. Which means EU lenders are actually profiting. [1] http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-portugal-imf-repayment-idUKKBN0MF2CE20150320 http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-portugal-imf-repayment-idUK... [2] https://ycharts.com/indicators/portugal_long_term_interest_rates https://ycharts.com/indicators/portugal_long_term_interest_r...
  - x3c 10y ago
    Great. Now make the journey from here to there.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - karim 10y ago
    Not if they use your money to buy things from your country.
- jerf 10y ago
  Every conversation we've had about the EU for the last five years or so. The entire world has been talking about the relative lack of wisdom of trying to hold the entire EU to one currency for a long time, financial mismanagement, Germany strong-arming Greece into plans not good for them while Greece holds the threat of leaving over the entire EU to get better deals, and all sorts of such financial issues for a long time now. Speculations that the EU was on the path to a breakup have been rampant for years, even before immigration issues were being discussed. Only now that the breakup might actually be happening is it a total surprise to everyone. (I'm surprised more people aren't celebrating Brexit. Before Brexit, the EU had all kinds of problems. Now suddenly they've all been solved, apparently. The selfless sacrifice of the UK should be celebrated by the EU, since apparently all the bad stuff is going to happen to the UK, alone. That's the problem with the "turn up the heat" approach to making people do things in politics; it may make people more likely to do things, but not necessarily the things you wanted.)
  - vmateixeira 10y ago
    I'm not saying that countries should or should not get out of the EU. I would just like to see some concrete evidences of Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugal on destroying German and British wealth.
    - jerf 10y ago
      You're setting a standard that can't be met by anyone. Any "concrete evidence" would have to provide concrete evidence of a hypothetical. But it isn't that bizarre of an idea that Germany could be better off if it wasn't tied to much weaker economies through a shared currency. Of course the problem here is that the situation is so large you can find not-quite-concrete evidence for almost any proposition.
      - vmateixeira 10y ago
        Agreed, there is no "concrete evidence" and no way of supporting any of the sides. But let's just imagine for a while, what if it would be the exact same opposite? Who helps richest countries go richer? How can a country grow if there is no decrease somewhere else? Maybe a greater profit if you don't need to pay for a different currency? Edit: With help I mean get cheap labour, cheap goods, cheap rent and even being able to sell in that country's market and export abroad.
m_fayer 10y ago
That's a big list of hyperbolic and controversial positions. I normally don't demand citations, but in this case...
- endeavour 10y ago
  See how far you have to scroll down the list to find an university inside the EU (excluding the UK). https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2016/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank_label/sort_order/asc/cols/rank_only https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...
  - iaskwhy 10y ago
    Saving you a click: #28 Karolinska Institute, Sweden. Also: "The Times Higher Education (THE), formerly the Times Higher Education Supplement (THES), is a weekly magazine based in London, reporting specifically on news and issues related to higher education. It is the United Kingdom's leading publication in its field."[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education
  - m_fayer 10y ago
    This list omits purely research institutions such as the Max Planck institutes, which as a whole are a behemoth: Also https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/the-titans-institutional-rankings-by-output-and-citations/408424.article https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/the-titans-institu...
    - programLyrique 10y ago
      And CNRS in France. The first British one is University College London, after Max Planck Society and CNRS. The Nature Index (http://www.natureindex.com/annual-tables/2016/institution/all/all http://www.natureindex.com/annual-tables/2016/institution/al... ) has CNRS 3rd, then the Max Planck institutes 4th, and the first British one, Oxford, is 7th.
RhodesianHunter 10y ago
> fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British The fact that Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual devalue the Euro below where a deutsche mark would be is a major component of Germany's success as an exporter over the last decade, and conversely those countries' inability to devalue their currency has caused them a great deal of pain.
JohnStrange 10y ago
Okay. Thanks for letting us know. I've always thought that dozens (or even hundreds) of governments from all political sides and from 28 different countries could not have gotten a project entirely wrong that they supported voluntarily for the mutual benefit of all member states during the past 40 years, but since you think otherwise I'll just take your word for it.
iaskwhy 10y ago
Many things could be said about it but today is a particular bad day to talk about the "EU's retarding democracy" as we, the UK, just got a new prime minister no one voted for...
- cylinder 10y ago
  Since when do you elect Prime Ministers? You voted the conservatives into majority power and they're free to select their leader.
  - iaskwhy 10y ago
    Sure, you voted for the PPE and they're free to select the government. How's that for EU democracy working for you?
2skep 10y ago
As a result of majority voters voting in favour of Brexit and to recover the democratic deficit and negotiate UK's exit from the EU a new PM has been appointed who did not support Leave. She was selected by Westminster which is largely supportive of Remain It would be very hard not to conclude that it is actually Westminster that is retarding democracy.
- diego_moita 10y ago
  > She was selected Or, maybe, the only thing Brexiters know how to do with problems and responsibilities is to "exit"/run away from them? (e.g.: Johnson, Farage, Leadsom,...)
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    Slur on "Brexiters" aside, the government called a referendum - it has the responsibility of a plan. Otherwise, who foots the bill for such a plan?
    - diego_moita 10y ago
      > the government [...] has the responsibility of a plan Uh, .... are you implying the Brexiters never had a plan?
      - Chris2048 10y ago
        No. There are no purposeful 'implications' in my comment, there are only explicit statements.
- endeavour 10y ago
  I happen to agree we should have an election, but I would point out: 1) Unlike EU commissioners, people can vote Theresa May out at the next general election. 2) The UK has a parliamentary democracy. It is not a presidential system. Theresa May was elected by her constituents. 3) Of the 14 prime ministers since the end of the Second World War, half of them (including Theresa May) assumed office between elections.
diego_moita 10y ago
> Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth Just wait and see what "destroying wealth" means. England gave up on producing food during the Industrial Revolution, gave up on imperial colonialism after WWII and gave up on manufacturing after Thatcher. Now it is giving up on the services economy. It will be interesting to see what comes out of it. Edit: Britain is not a paragon of fiscal responsibility. The only reason it hasn't been punished by the markets is because the markets are, to a great extent, in London. Things will change a lot.
- raugustinus 10y ago
  How is the UK giving up on the services economy?
  - diego_moita 10y ago
    There's plenty of evidence, the finance industry has been sounding loud alarms for some time. But the very fact that you ask is an evidence that people are deliberately deaf to them. So, the best answer I can give you is "wait and you'll see".
  - pjc50 10y ago
    Possible ending of free movement of people? Possible emigration of the finance industry because of that and because of loss of institutional "passporting"?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
DoubleGlazing 10y ago
Growth non-existent? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this would suggest otherwise... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#Economic_growth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#...
- ckinnan 10y ago
  Real per capita GDP was 26,200 euros in 2007 and is 26,300 today. After 10 years of EU policymaking and an extraordinary borrowing spree, nothing to show for it. http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tsdec100&plugin=1 http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&l...
  - tremon 10y ago
    That same table is showing a GDP rise from 23,400 to 26,200 between 2001 and 2008. Are those rises not attributable to EU policymaking then? In the same time period, US GDP rose from $49,979 to $51,486 [1]. But it shows the same drop as the EU figures: 2014 was the first year that GDP was higher than 2007 (the same in 2015 for the EU). Maybe there is a common factor that could explain the slump in both the US and EU GDP figures since roughly 2008? Or did EU policymaking also cause the US GDP to go down? [1] http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-per-capita http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-per-capita
lottin 10y ago
> European growth is non-existent Not according official GDP figures: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tec00115&plugin=1 http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&l... > the Euro is failing No evidence of that either. > fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth The UK government has one of the biggest deficits, as big as Portugal's actually. Only Spain and Greece are doing worse: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tec00127&plugin=1 http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&l...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

wangarific 10y ago

We have enough trouble overcoming the challenges of nature, we don't really need people making it harder for us.