4 ms·

I don't see anyway around the hard border. If border EU countries are required to protect their border... Whatever happens with Brexit, it's very unlikely ther

I don't see anyway around the hard border. If border EU countries are required to protect their border... Whatever happens with Brexit, it's very unlikely there'll be a "hard border" between the UK and ROI. The UK and ROI have a common travel area agreement that predates, and does not depend on, the EU. The ROI, like the UK, is not part of the Schengen agreement area and so is outside the "EU border" anyway. It's very difficult to imagine a scenario where Ireland would want to give up the CTA in favour of Schengen, even given the circumstances of Brexit. Even if the UK fails to negotiate full free market access or a free trade agreement with the EU, any restrictions would almost certainly relate to services, not the free movement of goods.

rmc 10y ago
Would the UK want a hard border? Otherwise any EU citizen could travel to Ireland. Walk across the border, and hence enter UK without any checks. If you get deported from the UK, just walk back across the border. etc. Would the UK accept that?
- barking 10y ago
  what would most likely happen is what happened during WW2 and that is border controls between NI and the UK mainland
  - talideon 10y ago
    The political fallout from that was manageable during WW2, but now, not so much. Unionists and Loyalists would have a fit at even the suggestion of border controls between NI and GB.
  - CalRobert 10y ago
    That would be even less popular than border controls between Alaska and/or Hawaii and the continental US.
- patrickk 10y ago
  Additionally, the EU likely wouldn't want the UK to have no border with ROI. Otherwise you could simply fly from (say) Romania to Dublin, travel up to Belfast, and move freely within the UK from there. This would create further tensions between the UK and EU.
  - randomtask 10y ago
    There's precedent of sorts for this though. Currently a non-EU citizen with a visa to Ireland still needs a visa to travel to the UK. This could be policed in the same way as that case.
- Reason077 10y ago
  any EU citizen could travel to Ireland. Walk across the border, and hence enter UK without any checks. Yes, but remember: Ireland is not part of the Schengen area. EU citizens (along with everyone else) go through border checks when entering Ireland from outside the common travel area. That information may be shared with the UK as part of the common travel area agreement, so it doesn't make a difference whether someone enters the common travel area in Ireland or in the UK. And of course, being allowed to enter a country (whether checked or not) does not necessarily mean you have the right to reside there and seek employment.
s_dev 10y ago
>Whatever happens with Brexit, it's very unlikely there'll be a "hard border" between the UK and ROI. The UK and ROI have a common travel area agreement that predates, and does not depend on, the EU. Predate isn't a synonym for supersede. Ireland gave up her sovereignty to make individual trade/free movement deals upon entering the EU. In fact the whole point of the EU is that we operate as an economic bloc. EU law and policy does supersede any arrangements made between Ireland the UK before EU membership. The CTA thing gets trotted out regularly by professional journalists and career politicians in Ireland but it's mistake to think the CTA has any real power over the EU.
sksksk 10y ago
If the UK leaves the EU, and a European person (who is allowed to live in Ireland, but not in the UK) travels to Ireland, what is to stop them illegally travelling to the UK without a hard border?
- Macha 10y ago
  What stopped a French person getting a visa to visit Ireland pre-EU membership and then walking across the border? Or I mean, Irish citizenship rules are very lax re: US citizens of Irish descent in particular, what was to stop them migrating to the UK en masse while we were in the EU?
- Maultasche 10y ago
  The EU guarantees the freedom of movement in the sense that any EU citizen can go and live in another EU country. It does not guarantee that people can cross borders without any border control. The Schengen area, on the other hand, guarantees that people can move across borders without border control. Border control is done at the Schengen area borders, whether that be land borders, sea ports, or airports. A country such as the UK can continue to be part of the Schengen area without being part of the EU. So anyone can fly into Ireland, where the border checks would be carried out. From there, the person could freely cross the border to the UK, but they would not have the right to live and work there. In order to do so (legally), they would have to apply for a UK visa and work permit. However, at the moment neither Ireland nor the UK participate in the Schengen area, so border checks will be conducted according to existing agreements between the UK and Ireland. From what I understand, if a person can freely enter Ireland, they can freely enter Northern Ireland. However, from what I hear, there are additional checks when traveling between Northern Ireland and the UK, so the UK can further control who comes from Northern Ireland.
  - valdiorn 10y ago
    > A country such as the UK can continue to be part of the Schengen area without being part of the EU UK's not in Schengen.
talideon 10y ago
The problem isn't Schengen: the problem is freedom of movement. These are two different things, even if people confuse them all the time. If there's no freedom of movement between the UK and the EU, then the Common Travel Area is essentially dead, regardless of whether or not the UK and Ireland are in Schengen. This has massive knock-on effects on NI: the Good Friday Agreement is predicated on there being no hard border between the North and South.

rmc 10y ago

Would the UK want a hard border? Otherwise any EU citizen could travel to Ireland. Walk across the border, and hence enter UK without any checks. If you get deported from the UK, just walk back across the border. etc. Would the UK accept that?

barking 10y ago
what would most likely happen is what happened during WW2 and that is border controls between NI and the UK mainland
- talideon 10y ago
  The political fallout from that was manageable during WW2, but now, not so much. Unionists and Loyalists would have a fit at even the suggestion of border controls between NI and GB.
- CalRobert 10y ago
  That would be even less popular than border controls between Alaska and/or Hawaii and the continental US.
patrickk 10y ago
Additionally, the EU likely wouldn't want the UK to have no border with ROI. Otherwise you could simply fly from (say) Romania to Dublin, travel up to Belfast, and move freely within the UK from there. This would create further tensions between the UK and EU.
- randomtask 10y ago
  There's precedent of sorts for this though. Currently a non-EU citizen with a visa to Ireland still needs a visa to travel to the UK. This could be policed in the same way as that case.
Reason077 10y ago
any EU citizen could travel to Ireland. Walk across the border, and hence enter UK without any checks. Yes, but remember: Ireland is not part of the Schengen area. EU citizens (along with everyone else) go through border checks when entering Ireland from outside the common travel area. That information may be shared with the UK as part of the common travel area agreement, so it doesn't make a difference whether someone enters the common travel area in Ireland or in the UK. And of course, being allowed to enter a country (whether checked or not) does not necessarily mean you have the right to reside there and seek employment.

s_dev 10y ago

>Whatever happens with Brexit, it's very unlikely there'll be a "hard border" between the UK and ROI. The UK and ROI have a common travel area agreement that predates, and does not depend on, the EU. Predate isn't a synonym for supersede. Ireland gave up her sovereignty to make individual trade/free movement deals upon entering the EU. In fact the whole point of the EU is that we operate as an economic bloc. EU law and policy does supersede any arrangements made between Ireland the UK before EU membership. The CTA thing gets trotted out regularly by professional journalists and career politicians in Ireland but it's mistake to think the CTA has any real power over the EU.

sksksk 10y ago

If the UK leaves the EU, and a European person (who is allowed to live in Ireland, but not in the UK) travels to Ireland, what is to stop them illegally travelling to the UK without a hard border?

Macha 10y ago
What stopped a French person getting a visa to visit Ireland pre-EU membership and then walking across the border? Or I mean, Irish citizenship rules are very lax re: US citizens of Irish descent in particular, what was to stop them migrating to the UK en masse while we were in the EU?
Maultasche 10y ago
The EU guarantees the freedom of movement in the sense that any EU citizen can go and live in another EU country. It does not guarantee that people can cross borders without any border control. The Schengen area, on the other hand, guarantees that people can move across borders without border control. Border control is done at the Schengen area borders, whether that be land borders, sea ports, or airports. A country such as the UK can continue to be part of the Schengen area without being part of the EU. So anyone can fly into Ireland, where the border checks would be carried out. From there, the person could freely cross the border to the UK, but they would not have the right to live and work there. In order to do so (legally), they would have to apply for a UK visa and work permit. However, at the moment neither Ireland nor the UK participate in the Schengen area, so border checks will be conducted according to existing agreements between the UK and Ireland. From what I understand, if a person can freely enter Ireland, they can freely enter Northern Ireland. However, from what I hear, there are additional checks when traveling between Northern Ireland and the UK, so the UK can further control who comes from Northern Ireland.
- valdiorn 10y ago
  > A country such as the UK can continue to be part of the Schengen area without being part of the EU UK's not in Schengen.

talideon 10y ago

The problem isn't Schengen: the problem is freedom of movement. These are two different things, even if people confuse them all the time. If there's no freedom of movement between the UK and the EU, then the Common Travel Area is essentially dead, regardless of whether or not the UK and Ireland are in Schengen. This has massive knock-on effects on NI: the Good Friday Agreement is predicated on there being no hard border between the North and South.