7 ms·

China state media accuses Google of political agenda

14 points by cwan 17y ago

buster 17y ago
Kudos to Google, the only company out there openly saying what everyone is thinking. I don't know another company that would dare to do this (especially in the lights of a huge, fast growing market and billions of dollars to lose).
- fnid2 17y ago
  Have you ever really thought about what it takes to run a country with 1.5 billion people in it? People are not rational. Just click on this link and see what you get: http://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+world%27s+oldest+civilization http://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+world%27s+oldest+civilization Google has been around for 15 years. They come from a country that is 230 years old -- and is dying. People aren't rational. People do stupid stuff all the time and while I agree that putting people in prison for talking about stuff is harsh (the U.S. does it too), china must keep much worse things from happening to protect the lives of over a billion people. They've been doing it successfully for thousands of years and it seems quite arrogant and ignorant to suggest that it is a good idea for some punk from across the pond to set the level of discourse necessary for China to continue operating effectively. If you want to see what "open communication" provides, just look at the U.S. Did open communication stop an illegal war in Iraq? Did it prevent the destruction of our 200 year old constitutional rights? Did it stop a dotcom bubble or a housing bubble or a gold bubble? Has it promoted a study of history or learning or rational thought? No. It is really beyond me why people from America, one of the biggest pilferers in the world, murderers in the world, and secretive organizations in the world would expect that increasing anything in china the way google is trying to do will lead to something good. It hasn't led to something good in the U.S. It's led to misery, suffering, and global catastrophe. China is going to squash google like the little bug they are.
  - tumult 17y ago
    Your anti-Google rage is absurd and also very visible in previous comments you've made in other threads.
    - fnid2 17y ago
      I've been anti-google for years. I'm not shy about stating it. It's not absurd. It's actually quite well reasoned.
  - henrikschroder 17y ago
    People do stupid stuff all the time and while I agree that putting people in prison for talking about stuff is harsh, china must keep much worse things from happening to protect the lives of over a billion people. That depends on what your society values most of all. In China, "stability" is king, in the same way that the U.S. values "freedom" over everything else. This shapes what tradeoffs and sacrifices your society is generally ok with, and what course of action its government generally takes. However, just because a country has chosen a particular value, it doesn't mean that that value is the objectively best for that country. It's impossible to have some sort of rational discussion of this, though. :) So no, it is not true that China must censor political dissidents, and we don't know if not doing so would be catastrophic, it's just that the Chinese people prefer that their government does so.
    - fnid2 17y ago
      That's my point: moral relativism. It's not our place to say how another country should be run by another people. It's arrogant and ignorant. Imagine Baidu censoring stuff in the U.S. We'd be just as angry as they are about google not censoring stuff. I will also argue that freedom is not what is valued in the united states. Freedom for the ruling class is valued, but it's not valued for native americans. It's not valued for Palestinians. It's not valued for people who smoke dope. The United States is not a "free" country. Its prisons are defined by wealth. Its freedoms are defined by political clout. Its laws are set by the rich, broken by the rich, and enforced on the lower class. Freedom of speech in this country is defined by what is acceptable to those in power. If the speech promotes what those in power want, it is distributed. The media controls speech in this country -- not the people. It doesn't really matter anyway. How many people speak out about the war? It still started because the liars were louder. So does it matter?
      - henrikschroder 17y ago
        It's not our place to say how another country should be run by another people. There's a difference between dictating what others should do and leading by example. Google doesn't care what other search engines in China do, they're just saying that they do not wish to censor anything on their search engine. If this is unacceptable to the Chinese government, they should just kick Google out instead of whining about it. Of course multi-national companies are coloured by their original culture, this cannot be a surprise to anyone, yet that is exactly what the Chinese government is acting like.
  - dublinclontarf 17y ago
    Worlds oldest civilisation? The CCP is not another dynasty and is only 60 at best. What the CCP has been doing is keeping itself in power and keeping the gravy-train rolling. Life in the U.S is far better for most than in China. And the last time the CCP tried to run the country up to 80Million died, now they let most things run themselves and just collect the protection money. You sound like one of the 50cent gang, how much did the CCP pay you for this post, and do you get more for it being in English?
    - fnid2 17y ago
      It's far better for Americans, but it's far worse for countless individuals around the world. Look, my life is not better because thousands of innocent people are dying in Iraq. I suffer. My mind is full of regret that my life is what it is due to torture, murder, and the theft and destruction of other people's property. It's wrong and our society should hold our collective heads in shame. I am not saying what china is doing is right. I am saying it is wrong for us to go into their country, profit off of their citizens and break their laws. If you want to take their money, obey the law. This is why I am anti-google. They are the example that proves we are a lawless nation. Google has been allowed to break the law repeatedly and continue to profit. If any individual around here broke the laws that google breaks every day -- making millions of dollars for doing it -- we'd be fined or in prison.
      - dublinclontarf 17y ago
        Pfffsssht. you sound like China isn't full of arbitrary laws that make it impossible to be "legal". You also sound like the people living there are represented by their government, as opposed to being ruled by it. Note, it's the "laws" of the CCP's dictatorship, not the citizens. And all Google is doing is attempting to operate without complete political censorship, of things that embarrass the CCP. Your a shill, probably a poorly paid one.
        fnid2 17y ago
        I was working for the 888 karma points. Please neg me so I can be more lucky.
shib71 17y ago
For a company in Google's position the line between policy and politics is a fine one. Their business depends on being the middleman between users and content. Censorship isn't an abstract ideal or a cultural artefact in that situation - it's a key factor in every decision they make, in China and everywhere else.
- fnid2 17y ago
  I wish more ideas in the U.S. were censored. Like the idea that it is okay for bankers to make millions for creating zero value while putting people on the street. Or that it is okay for the government to invade a sovereign entity and take their oil. Or that it is okay to fly people to other countries on corporate jets so you can torture them.
cstross 17y ago
Google is, in any event, an American corporation founded by Americans with American political values (specifically those of the liberal/socially libertarian west coast technosphere). "Don't be evil" is a very political agenda for a corporation in these days of profit maximization as the default setting, and Google -- by the nature of their business model -- also has a profit motive for maximizing uncensored communication. So from the Chinese communist party point of view, it's absolutely correct to say that Google has a political agenda. (The question of whose political agenda -- the Party's or Google's -- is better is (a) a value judgement and (b) utterly irrelevant to the question of whether Google's agenda is compatible with that of the Chinese ruling party.)
- est 17y ago
  > Google is, in any event, an American corporation founded by Americans with American political values Baidu is, in any event, a Chinese corporation founded by Americans with Chinese political values
  - garply 17y ago
    Robin Li is an American? Who are the other founders?
- garply 17y ago
  I often feel like people here are drinking too much of the Google kool-aid. A corporate slogan is just a corporate slogan - it's a form of advertising, designed to make you like their brand more. Google, like all publicly owned companies, exists to make money, not to forward a political agenda - unless that political agenda helps them make more money.
maeon3 17y ago
From the article: "China requires Internet operators to block words and images the ruling Communist Party deems unacceptable, including those involving politically sensitive topics." Google's political agenda is to stop China from setting the Agendas and "approved thoughts" on the internet. The rhetoric and hot air is dense with this story.
- fnid2 17y ago
  There are approved thoughts in the U.S. too. Larry Summers wasn't allowed to think it is possible that there may be some gender differences in intellectual leanings. You get stiffer punishments for "hate" crimes. Try posting into a chat forum somewhere that you want to do something that a political leader in the U.S. wouldn't want you to do to him or her and see what happens. The secret service will show up at your door -- it has happened, because "threatening the President is illegal." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/16/teen_myspace_protest/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/16/teen_myspace_protest... It is humorous to me, that we are allowed to have guns in order that one day we can defend ourselves against tyranny, but merely talking about what may be necessary to do that is illegal. The level of hypocrisy in the google vs. china debate is bewildering.
maxklein 17y ago
I personally strongly believe also that Googles actions were politically motivated. Google is not standing up for free speech or anything like that - they are just supporting the position of the United States government. I expect a company to which I entrust my data to be neutral politically. I don't care if my data is used to benefit someone, but I do not want my data to be used for political purposes. Google, in towing the line of the American government, has shown that it is a political entity, and at some point, it could decide that anyone "anti-american" would have their data handed over to the American government. A company that has so much information about me should not be making any kind of political statement. What if this were Nazi Germany and Google decided to take the side of the government, and provided my data to it? I can understand a company when it says that it wants to make money, it's motivations are very clear to me. But when it says it "supports freedom", well, who is the person that defines freedom? Who is to say that that definition of freedom is the same as mine? Was Mandela not called a terrorist at some point and at another point a freedom fighter?
motters 17y ago
The usual incoherent/conspiratorial rant that you'd expect from a totalitarian state media. Google isn't trying to impose a political agenda, it's merely trying to provide access to the world's information, which may include things which the Chinese government prefers its population to remain ignorant about.
- araneae 17y ago
  Not to mention the flat-out lies. "In fact, no country allows unrestricted flow on the Internet of pornographic, violent, gambling or superstitious content, or content on government subversion, ethnic separatism, religious extremism, racialism, terrorism and anti-foreign feelings." The US does not restrict access to most of those things, as far as I know. The only exceptions are child pornography laws, gambling, and presumably state secrets are also kept off the net. And hardly any countries restrict access to "superstitious content." I suspect that's only the case in communist countries, where atheism is mandatory. In fact, I didn't even realize China did this; what do they do, ban www.dontwalkbehindladders.com ?
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - fnid2 17y ago
    It is funny that they include the superstitious stuff considering china is the world's biggest consumer of shark fin soup, 8's and porcelain cats with endlessly waving paws.

14 points by cwan 17y ago

Kudos to Google, the only company out there openly saying what everyone is thinking. I don't know another company that would dare to do this (especially in the lights of a huge, fast growing market and billions of dollars to lose).

fnid2 17y ago
Have you ever really thought about what it takes to run a country with 1.5 billion people in it? People are not rational. Just click on this link and see what you get: http://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+world%27s+oldest+civilization http://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+world%27s+oldest+civilization Google has been around for 15 years. They come from a country that is 230 years old -- and is dying. People aren't rational. People do stupid stuff all the time and while I agree that putting people in prison for talking about stuff is harsh (the U.S. does it too), china must keep much worse things from happening to protect the lives of over a billion people. They've been doing it successfully for thousands of years and it seems quite arrogant and ignorant to suggest that it is a good idea for some punk from across the pond to set the level of discourse necessary for China to continue operating effectively. If you want to see what "open communication" provides, just look at the U.S. Did open communication stop an illegal war in Iraq? Did it prevent the destruction of our 200 year old constitutional rights? Did it stop a dotcom bubble or a housing bubble or a gold bubble? Has it promoted a study of history or learning or rational thought? No. It is really beyond me why people from America, one of the biggest pilferers in the world, murderers in the world, and secretive organizations in the world would expect that increasing anything in china the way google is trying to do will lead to something good. It hasn't led to something good in the U.S. It's led to misery, suffering, and global catastrophe. China is going to squash google like the little bug they are.
- tumult 17y ago
  Your anti-Google rage is absurd and also very visible in previous comments you've made in other threads.
  - fnid2 17y ago
    I've been anti-google for years. I'm not shy about stating it. It's not absurd. It's actually quite well reasoned.
- henrikschroder 17y ago
  People do stupid stuff all the time and while I agree that putting people in prison for talking about stuff is harsh, china must keep much worse things from happening to protect the lives of over a billion people. That depends on what your society values most of all. In China, "stability" is king, in the same way that the U.S. values "freedom" over everything else. This shapes what tradeoffs and sacrifices your society is generally ok with, and what course of action its government generally takes. However, just because a country has chosen a particular value, it doesn't mean that that value is the objectively best for that country. It's impossible to have some sort of rational discussion of this, though. :) So no, it is not true that China must censor political dissidents, and we don't know if not doing so would be catastrophic, it's just that the Chinese people prefer that their government does so.
  - fnid2 17y ago
    That's my point: moral relativism. It's not our place to say how another country should be run by another people. It's arrogant and ignorant. Imagine Baidu censoring stuff in the U.S. We'd be just as angry as they are about google not censoring stuff. I will also argue that freedom is not what is valued in the united states. Freedom for the ruling class is valued, but it's not valued for native americans. It's not valued for Palestinians. It's not valued for people who smoke dope. The United States is not a "free" country. Its prisons are defined by wealth. Its freedoms are defined by political clout. Its laws are set by the rich, broken by the rich, and enforced on the lower class. Freedom of speech in this country is defined by what is acceptable to those in power. If the speech promotes what those in power want, it is distributed. The media controls speech in this country -- not the people. It doesn't really matter anyway. How many people speak out about the war? It still started because the liars were louder. So does it matter?
    - henrikschroder 17y ago
      It's not our place to say how another country should be run by another people. There's a difference between dictating what others should do and leading by example. Google doesn't care what other search engines in China do, they're just saying that they do not wish to censor anything on their search engine. If this is unacceptable to the Chinese government, they should just kick Google out instead of whining about it. Of course multi-national companies are coloured by their original culture, this cannot be a surprise to anyone, yet that is exactly what the Chinese government is acting like.
- dublinclontarf 17y ago
  Worlds oldest civilisation? The CCP is not another dynasty and is only 60 at best. What the CCP has been doing is keeping itself in power and keeping the gravy-train rolling. Life in the U.S is far better for most than in China. And the last time the CCP tried to run the country up to 80Million died, now they let most things run themselves and just collect the protection money. You sound like one of the 50cent gang, how much did the CCP pay you for this post, and do you get more for it being in English?
  - fnid2 17y ago
    It's far better for Americans, but it's far worse for countless individuals around the world. Look, my life is not better because thousands of innocent people are dying in Iraq. I suffer. My mind is full of regret that my life is what it is due to torture, murder, and the theft and destruction of other people's property. It's wrong and our society should hold our collective heads in shame. I am not saying what china is doing is right. I am saying it is wrong for us to go into their country, profit off of their citizens and break their laws. If you want to take their money, obey the law. This is why I am anti-google. They are the example that proves we are a lawless nation. Google has been allowed to break the law repeatedly and continue to profit. If any individual around here broke the laws that google breaks every day -- making millions of dollars for doing it -- we'd be fined or in prison.
    - dublinclontarf 17y ago
      Pfffsssht. you sound like China isn't full of arbitrary laws that make it impossible to be "legal". You also sound like the people living there are represented by their government, as opposed to being ruled by it. Note, it's the "laws" of the CCP's dictatorship, not the citizens. And all Google is doing is attempting to operate without complete political censorship, of things that embarrass the CCP. Your a shill, probably a poorly paid one.
      - fnid2 17y ago
        I was working for the 888 karma points. Please neg me so I can be more lucky.

shib71 17y ago

For a company in Google's position the line between policy and politics is a fine one. Their business depends on being the middleman between users and content. Censorship isn't an abstract ideal or a cultural artefact in that situation - it's a key factor in every decision they make, in China and everywhere else.

fnid2 17y ago
I wish more ideas in the U.S. were censored. Like the idea that it is okay for bankers to make millions for creating zero value while putting people on the street. Or that it is okay for the government to invade a sovereign entity and take their oil. Or that it is okay to fly people to other countries on corporate jets so you can torture them.

cstross 17y ago

Google is, in any event, an American corporation founded by Americans with American political values (specifically those of the liberal/socially libertarian west coast technosphere). "Don't be evil" is a very political agenda for a corporation in these days of profit maximization as the default setting, and Google -- by the nature of their business model -- also has a profit motive for maximizing uncensored communication. So from the Chinese communist party point of view, it's absolutely correct to say that Google has a political agenda. (The question of whose political agenda -- the Party's or Google's -- is better is (a) a value judgement and (b) utterly irrelevant to the question of whether Google's agenda is compatible with that of the Chinese ruling party.)

est 17y ago
> Google is, in any event, an American corporation founded by Americans with American political values Baidu is, in any event, a Chinese corporation founded by Americans with Chinese political values
- garply 17y ago
  Robin Li is an American? Who are the other founders?
garply 17y ago
I often feel like people here are drinking too much of the Google kool-aid. A corporate slogan is just a corporate slogan - it's a form of advertising, designed to make you like their brand more. Google, like all publicly owned companies, exists to make money, not to forward a political agenda - unless that political agenda helps them make more money.

maeon3 17y ago

From the article: "China requires Internet operators to block words and images the ruling Communist Party deems unacceptable, including those involving politically sensitive topics." Google's political agenda is to stop China from setting the Agendas and "approved thoughts" on the internet. The rhetoric and hot air is dense with this story.

fnid2 17y ago
There are approved thoughts in the U.S. too. Larry Summers wasn't allowed to think it is possible that there may be some gender differences in intellectual leanings. You get stiffer punishments for "hate" crimes. Try posting into a chat forum somewhere that you want to do something that a political leader in the U.S. wouldn't want you to do to him or her and see what happens. The secret service will show up at your door -- it has happened, because "threatening the President is illegal." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/16/teen_myspace_protest/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/16/teen_myspace_protest... It is humorous to me, that we are allowed to have guns in order that one day we can defend ourselves against tyranny, but merely talking about what may be necessary to do that is illegal. The level of hypocrisy in the google vs. china debate is bewildering.

maxklein 17y ago

I personally strongly believe also that Googles actions were politically motivated. Google is not standing up for free speech or anything like that - they are just supporting the position of the United States government. I expect a company to which I entrust my data to be neutral politically. I don't care if my data is used to benefit someone, but I do not want my data to be used for political purposes. Google, in towing the line of the American government, has shown that it is a political entity, and at some point, it could decide that anyone "anti-american" would have their data handed over to the American government. A company that has so much information about me should not be making any kind of political statement. What if this were Nazi Germany and Google decided to take the side of the government, and provided my data to it? I can understand a company when it says that it wants to make money, it's motivations are very clear to me. But when it says it "supports freedom", well, who is the person that defines freedom? Who is to say that that definition of freedom is the same as mine? Was Mandela not called a terrorist at some point and at another point a freedom fighter?

motters 17y ago

The usual incoherent/conspiratorial rant that you'd expect from a totalitarian state media. Google isn't trying to impose a political agenda, it's merely trying to provide access to the world's information, which may include things which the Chinese government prefers its population to remain ignorant about.

araneae 17y ago
Not to mention the flat-out lies. "In fact, no country allows unrestricted flow on the Internet of pornographic, violent, gambling or superstitious content, or content on government subversion, ethnic separatism, religious extremism, racialism, terrorism and anti-foreign feelings." The US does not restrict access to most of those things, as far as I know. The only exceptions are child pornography laws, gambling, and presumably state secrets are also kept off the net. And hardly any countries restrict access to "superstitious content." I suspect that's only the case in communist countries, where atheism is mandatory. In fact, I didn't even realize China did this; what do they do, ban www.dontwalkbehindladders.com ?
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- fnid2 17y ago
  It is funny that they include the superstitious stuff considering china is the world's biggest consumer of shark fin soup, 8's and porcelain cats with endlessly waving paws.