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I get mad at people who think sons of first-cousins are second-cousins all the time -- and, frankly, almost everyone I know think this way. I'm glad you linked
by fiatjaf 10y ago
I get mad at people who think sons of first-cousins are second-cousins all the time -- and, frankly, almost everyone I know think this way.
I'm glad you linked to this Wikipedia article that proves I'm not mad into thinking there is a simple logic pattern that can be applied to cousinship.
However, this "once removed" notation is crazy. Why not second-uncle for parents of second-cousins and so on?
- dietrichepp 10y agoPardon me for my ignorance, but wouldn't sons of first cousins be second cousins?
- ironrabbit 10y agoLanguage quirk :) The son of my first cousin is my first cousin once removed. My son and my cousin's son are second cousins.
- dietrichepp 10y agoAh, I read "sons of first cousins" as "two people who are first cousins to each other each have a son". "A son of a first cousin" would be much less ambiguous. In fact, even knowing what you meant, I have a hard time reading the meaning you intended to convey. Another clearer way to phrase it would be "sons of my first cousin are not my second cousins".
- hellofunk 10y agoActually the term "second cousin" does not have a concrete meaning. It can mean a true second cousin, or it can also mean a generation removed from a first cousin. The "once removed" terminology was introduced to compensate for this ambiguity.
- fiatjaf 10y agoNo! Stop the removed madness!
- delecti 10y agoGenerally the "1st/2nd" bit denotes how many generations up you have to go to find a common ancestor, and "removed" is how many generations removed the other person is from that generation. You are, to your your first cousin's child, who is your first cousin once-removed, a second cousin once-removed.
- jccalhoun 10y agoyes. the wording and the fact that other people seemed to agree with the op made me spend way too much time on this.
- graywh 10y agoHe must be referring to one's own first cousin's children. Not the children of two first cousins.
- fiatjaf 10y agoYou can call them anything you like, I'm just saying that you shouldn't.
- srtjstjsj 10y agoThere's an app for that! https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/cousinosity/9nblggh0jvm0 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/apps/cousinosity/9nblg...
- rat87 10y agoThat's what I use. 2nd uncle, 2nd grand aunt Fun fact: in Russian a first cousin is a 2nd Brother/Sister, a 2nd cousin is a 3rd Brother/Sister and so on.
- tempestn 10y agoThat makes a lot of sense! The distinction between sibling and nth cousin is basically arbitrary. (Although obviously there is logic in making the distinction as well as in omitting it.)
- avodonosov 10y agoArbitrary? You have the same parents with sibling; with cousin you share only one of the two pairs of grandparents.
- davnicwil 10y agoActually that's often but not always true - brother b1 and sister s1 from family 1, with parents g1 brother b2 and sister s2 from family 2, with parents g2 s1 has child x with b2 - x has grandparents g1, g2 s2 has child y with b1 - y has grandparents g1, g2 x and y are cousins, and also share the same 2 pairs of grandparents :-)
- logfromblammo 10y agoThose are "double first cousins". I even have some triple cousins in my tree, where three siblings from one family married three siblings from another family.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- cfallin 10y agoIt can get even more fun! If instead of two brothers marrying two sisters, you have two brothers marrying two first cousins, like so... b1 and b2 are brothers c1 and c2 are first cousins b1 and c1 marry and have child x b2 and c2 marry and have child y ... then x and y are both first and second cousins (and their children are second + third cousins, etc).
- Throwaway23412 10y agoEdit: Nvm. I am more confused than I thought.
- mod 10y agoI've always wondered about this one: My father's first-cousin-once-removed is what to me?
- m_myers 10y agoThat depends on which direction the cousin is removed. If a generation above your father, it is your first cousin twice removed. If a generation below, it is your second cousin.
- bobwaycott 10y agoYour second cousin if you share the same great-grandparents. Edit: Ugh, this gets confusing. I was mistaken. I'd originally included the once-removed, but that appears to be incorrect. Or I'm still mistaken. :) A first cousin once-removed signifies one person's grandparent is the other's great-grandparent. Perhaps this cousin chart would help: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin#Relationship_charts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin#Relationship_charts Just plot yourself and the cousin-in-question by where your shared nth-grandparent lies.
- sergeantseb 10y agoDepends on the direction removed?
- alexwagg 10y agoI think, if your father's cousin-once-removed is a generation below him, then he/she is your first-cousin. While a generate above you father would signal first-cousin-twice-removed... Thoughts?
- tempestn 10y agoIn the first case he/she would be your second cousin, not first.
- eru 10y agoYou are hitting the borders where logic and common usage meet. I am actually surprised that descriptive grammar holds up so well to logic. (There's no a priori reason why descriptive grammar, that describes common usage of language, actually is as mostly compressible to simple rules as it is.)
- fiatjaf 10y agoIf there's a clearer and more specific way to speak about something, we should try to use it.
- eru 10y agoDesign of language is a constant trade-off, between ease of remembering, compression (ie giving shorter ways to express more common concepts), fault-tolerance, desire of the speaker to look clever, fashion, ... And all of us work on the evolution of language every day.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- moron4hire 10y agoYou get mad? Really? Why?
- thegenius2000 10y agoWorse even, the "once removed" notation has no notion of direction, so it's inherently ambiguous. I'm also pretty sure that less half of the people I hear using it know what it means (or tries to mean).
- return0 10y agoThis got me confused. You actually mean people who confuse "second niece" (i.e. your cousin's son) with "second cousin". Is that usage common in english? The daughters of cousins are second cousins,no?
- unethical_ban 10y agoThat's how we've always done it. * Brother of father is uncle. Son of uncle is cousin. Son of son of uncle is second cousin. * Brother of grandfather is great-uncle. Son of great-uncle is second cousin.
- fiatjaf 10y agoThat's exactly what you shouldn't be doing.
- justinlardinois 10y agoIsn't the term "uncle" relatively recent? I recall Hamlet referring to his father's brother as his cousin.
- fiatjaf 10y agoYou must be very old.