4 ms·

> AP is an experimental project from Microsoft Technology and Research, available to you as and Android app on Google Play Store and the web. And this is why I

> AP is an experimental project from Microsoft Technology and Research, available to you as and Android app on Google Play Store and the web. And this is why I went from Windows Phone 8 to Android. The Microsoft experience on Android is arguably better than on their own OS.

rjbwork 10y ago
And to think, the Android guys originally wanted to use C# as the native Android language, but were worried about being sued by MS for it. Instead they went with Java and got sued by Oracle for it, whereas MS open sourced it all. * Yes I know parts of .NET are still closed source/proprietary.
- jdmichal 10y ago
  Microsoft even made the C# language specification ECMA and ISO standards. The ECMA process started shortly after the first commercial release. I'm pretty sure if they had just talked to the Microsoft guys, they would have realized everything would be fine.
  - taneq 10y ago
    You have to remember that Microsoft is a very different beast today than they were back in 2005.
    - jdmichal 10y ago
      Not really relevant to this particular conversation. C# was commercially released in July 2000. The ECMA standardization committee was founded in September of the same year. Writing began in January 2003, and the standard officially adopted in June 2006. This is all described in the standard: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma-334.pdf http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST... There's also a standard for CLI (Common Language Infrastructure), which is the underpinning of the .NET platform: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-335.pdf http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST...
      - taneq 10y ago
        I didn't say C# was released after this time, I said Microsoft is a different beast now. They've made a significant swing towards open source and embracing the OSS community. Back in 2005 they still very much thought they ruled the world and could get away with anything.
        jdmichal 10y ago
        Your opinion on 2005 Microsoft is great and all, but I still don't see its application to this exact conversation. From 2006 and on, anyone could implement a C# compiler and runtime from the ECMA standard with absolutely no barriers from Microsoft. This was the result of a process that started in 2000, a few months after the official release of the language.
        onli 10y ago
        I think it is relevant. The Microsoft of that time (and it is debatable how much that changed) is not one company on which you'd rely on for a cooperation in such a project. There is no telling which tricks MS might have used to make money out of it – the same way Oracle's API copyright bullshit was a trick to make money. Don't forget that Microsoft uses patents to extort a share of many android phones sold, see http://uk.businessinsider.com/microsoft-android-patent-licensing-revenue-falling-2016-4?r=US&IR=T http://uk.businessinsider.com/microsoft-android-patent-licen.... I thought that had stopped by now, but that article is from april…
        zamalek 10y ago
        > Microsoft uses patents So does Google, so does Apple and so does Samsung. If you don't protect your rights they will be taken away. The mobile market is in a state of mutually assured destruction. The fault lies with our broken patent system and all the players in that market: not Microsoft alone.
- BHSPitMonkey 10y ago
  It's also possible that Microsoft might have been less willing to open the language if it had become an integral pillar of the Android ecosystem.
  - cema 10y ago
    True. We don't know that. I think however that this may be one of those cases when perception is stronger than reality: perception of what Microsoft is and what Java is.
  - jdmichal 10y ago
    The ECMA standardization committee was founded three months after the commercial release of C#.
    - BHSPitMonkey 10y ago
      I'm referring to Microsoft's moves in the past year to release their compiler and other parts of the .NET toolchain (and Xamarin) as MIT-licensed open-source projects (moves the company wasn't forced to make). Even though the language itself has been an open standard for some time, the C# ecosystem was very different a few years ago than it is in 2016.
dingo_bat 10y ago
This is correct. The Microsoft apps on android are phenomenal. I think it speaks volumes about the android toolchain and development scope when a direct competitor can make better apps than for their own platform.
- adrianratnapala 10y ago
  I am no expert on Android, but I have only heard negativity about the UI framework from developers. And as for the toolchain, I can't speak for mobile development in particular. But generally speaking, VStudio smacks Eclipse silly.
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    I was going to comment on the fact that Microsoft has released a lot of their OWN tooling for Android. But I wanted to issue a quick correction to your comment: Android development hasn't been Eclipse based in years. Google went over towards encouraging IntelliJ, and Android Studio is based on it.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      And still isn't able to deliver a sane experience for developing NDK based apps on Android, as what Microsoft produced in around one year. Or an emulator as good as what Microsoft created for Android. I really don't know what all those PhDs are doing in Mountain View, code review from offshored work?!
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Microsoft is also delivering a developer experience for NDK users miles ahead of what Google PhDs and Interview Puzzle Solvers are capable to deliver.

rjbwork 10y ago

And to think, the Android guys originally wanted to use C# as the native Android language, but were worried about being sued by MS for it. Instead they went with Java and got sued by Oracle for it, whereas MS open sourced it all. * Yes I know parts of .NET are still closed source/proprietary.

jdmichal 10y ago
Microsoft even made the C# language specification ECMA and ISO standards. The ECMA process started shortly after the first commercial release. I'm pretty sure if they had just talked to the Microsoft guys, they would have realized everything would be fine.
- taneq 10y ago
  You have to remember that Microsoft is a very different beast today than they were back in 2005.
  - jdmichal 10y ago
    Not really relevant to this particular conversation. C# was commercially released in July 2000. The ECMA standardization committee was founded in September of the same year. Writing began in January 2003, and the standard officially adopted in June 2006. This is all described in the standard: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma-334.pdf http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST... There's also a standard for CLI (Common Language Infrastructure), which is the underpinning of the .NET platform: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-335.pdf http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST...
    - taneq 10y ago
      I didn't say C# was released after this time, I said Microsoft is a different beast now. They've made a significant swing towards open source and embracing the OSS community. Back in 2005 they still very much thought they ruled the world and could get away with anything.
      - jdmichal 10y ago
        Your opinion on 2005 Microsoft is great and all, but I still don't see its application to this exact conversation. From 2006 and on, anyone could implement a C# compiler and runtime from the ECMA standard with absolutely no barriers from Microsoft. This was the result of a process that started in 2000, a few months after the official release of the language.
        onli 10y ago
        I think it is relevant. The Microsoft of that time (and it is debatable how much that changed) is not one company on which you'd rely on for a cooperation in such a project. There is no telling which tricks MS might have used to make money out of it – the same way Oracle's API copyright bullshit was a trick to make money. Don't forget that Microsoft uses patents to extort a share of many android phones sold, see http://uk.businessinsider.com/microsoft-android-patent-licensing-revenue-falling-2016-4?r=US&IR=T http://uk.businessinsider.com/microsoft-android-patent-licen.... I thought that had stopped by now, but that article is from april…
        zamalek 10y ago
        > Microsoft uses patents So does Google, so does Apple and so does Samsung. If you don't protect your rights they will be taken away. The mobile market is in a state of mutually assured destruction. The fault lies with our broken patent system and all the players in that market: not Microsoft alone.
BHSPitMonkey 10y ago
It's also possible that Microsoft might have been less willing to open the language if it had become an integral pillar of the Android ecosystem.
- cema 10y ago
  True. We don't know that. I think however that this may be one of those cases when perception is stronger than reality: perception of what Microsoft is and what Java is.
- jdmichal 10y ago
  The ECMA standardization committee was founded three months after the commercial release of C#.
  - BHSPitMonkey 10y ago
    I'm referring to Microsoft's moves in the past year to release their compiler and other parts of the .NET toolchain (and Xamarin) as MIT-licensed open-source projects (moves the company wasn't forced to make). Even though the language itself has been an open standard for some time, the C# ecosystem was very different a few years ago than it is in 2016.

dingo_bat 10y ago

This is correct. The Microsoft apps on android are phenomenal. I think it speaks volumes about the android toolchain and development scope when a direct competitor can make better apps than for their own platform.

adrianratnapala 10y ago
I am no expert on Android, but I have only heard negativity about the UI framework from developers. And as for the toolchain, I can't speak for mobile development in particular. But generally speaking, VStudio smacks Eclipse silly.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  I was going to comment on the fact that Microsoft has released a lot of their OWN tooling for Android. But I wanted to issue a quick correction to your comment: Android development hasn't been Eclipse based in years. Google went over towards encouraging IntelliJ, and Android Studio is based on it.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    And still isn't able to deliver a sane experience for developing NDK based apps on Android, as what Microsoft produced in around one year. Or an emulator as good as what Microsoft created for Android. I really don't know what all those PhDs are doing in Mountain View, code review from offshored work?!
pjmlp 10y ago
Microsoft is also delivering a developer experience for NDK users miles ahead of what Google PhDs and Interview Puzzle Solvers are capable to deliver.