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This is silly. Breaking laws comes with penalties, which are determined by the courts. There is nothing that inherently states that lawbreakers must be forcibly

by niftich 10y ago

This is silly. Breaking laws comes with penalties, which are determined by the courts. There is nothing that inherently states that lawbreakers must be forcibly moved to a government-controlled site; furthermore there's nothing that says people who try to resist arrest should be met with lethal force.

danbruc 10y ago
You have to at least establish the identity of the person you want to bring to court. This comes with the possibility that the person might resist and there you go - either you give up and let the person walk away without knowing who he was or you have to use some kind of force. And there is no way around that - rules and laws are just words on paper, ultimately you always have to use force in one way or another if someone does not voluntarily honor the words, otherwise they will only be words on paper and nothing more.
- niftich 10y ago
  You can penalize 'resisting arrest' in other ways than trying to arrest. You can fine them, or revoke licenses, or apply some other penalty that isn't based around jail time -- for which you'd have to actually perform the arrest.
  - danbruc 10y ago
    How do you fine someone without knowing the identity? What do you do if they don't pay the fine? What if they continue doing what they are no longer allowed to do without the license? There are certainly cases where you can punish someone without any cooperation on their side - like no longer giving them some benefits or freezing a bank account - but those scenarios are really far from covering all possible scenarios and you still have to determine the identity at the very least.
mseebach 10y ago
Perhaps there's nothing that says so, but nevertheless that's the system which is in place in most of the civilised world. If you want to enforce a law (it's always an option not to enforce a given law, but then you might as well not have it) against an offender that for whatever doesn't want to cooperate with the penalty decided, what do you propose doing?
- niftich 10y ago
  If you're resisting arrest, the penalty has not yet been decided. You're still at the phase where law enforcement wants to detain you because they suspect you of having committed a crime. At this point, you often incur the additional criminal charge of 'resisting arrest', which can be penalized separately, which does not necessarily need to be by arresting you -- and thereby avoiding a race-condition. You could instead, for example, be subject to a court order that turns off utilities to your dwelling until you surrender to police custody, making you less likely to continue resisting. Or you could have your wages garnished, or simply staked out for days, making it difficult to go about your day. There are many creative possibilities.
  - pixl97 10y ago
    Never happening in the U.S. Especially after many cases where cops have given up chase on suspects that later when to murder others. But I do have a better idea. QUIT RESISTING ARREST. There you go. People in most other countries don't seem to have the problem with that we have in the US.
    - mseebach 10y ago
      That's a great idea. Just do exactly what we say, exactly when we say it, then we won't (possibly, accidentally) kill you!
  - mseebach 10y ago
    You're just pushing the problem out one level of abstraction. Why would the utility company agree to help compel a customer? Why would an employer agree to help compel an employee? Ultimately because you compel them to, under similar circumstances. If businesses will generally help punish offenders amongst their customers and employees, you don't really need law enforcement. It's a tangent, but you also have to consider the self-employed survivalist on the ranch. No water to turn off, no employer to compel.
tgarma1234 10y ago
Absolutely agree and I find it baffling we would even be typing this. Breaking laws should not always be punishable by death even if the law you are breaking is "don't resist police authority". Sheesh. "Off with their heads!" is the punishment for everything? That doesn't seem reasonable. There are lots of laws I agree with but that I wouldn't say someone should die if they break it.

by niftich 10y ago

danbruc 10y ago

You have to at least establish the identity of the person you want to bring to court. This comes with the possibility that the person might resist and there you go - either you give up and let the person walk away without knowing who he was or you have to use some kind of force. And there is no way around that - rules and laws are just words on paper, ultimately you always have to use force in one way or another if someone does not voluntarily honor the words, otherwise they will only be words on paper and nothing more.

niftich 10y ago
You can penalize 'resisting arrest' in other ways than trying to arrest. You can fine them, or revoke licenses, or apply some other penalty that isn't based around jail time -- for which you'd have to actually perform the arrest.
- danbruc 10y ago
  How do you fine someone without knowing the identity? What do you do if they don't pay the fine? What if they continue doing what they are no longer allowed to do without the license? There are certainly cases where you can punish someone without any cooperation on their side - like no longer giving them some benefits or freezing a bank account - but those scenarios are really far from covering all possible scenarios and you still have to determine the identity at the very least.

mseebach 10y ago

Perhaps there's nothing that says so, but nevertheless that's the system which is in place in most of the civilised world. If you want to enforce a law (it's always an option not to enforce a given law, but then you might as well not have it) against an offender that for whatever doesn't want to cooperate with the penalty decided, what do you propose doing?

niftich 10y ago
If you're resisting arrest, the penalty has not yet been decided. You're still at the phase where law enforcement wants to detain you because they suspect you of having committed a crime. At this point, you often incur the additional criminal charge of 'resisting arrest', which can be penalized separately, which does not necessarily need to be by arresting you -- and thereby avoiding a race-condition. You could instead, for example, be subject to a court order that turns off utilities to your dwelling until you surrender to police custody, making you less likely to continue resisting. Or you could have your wages garnished, or simply staked out for days, making it difficult to go about your day. There are many creative possibilities.
- pixl97 10y ago
  Never happening in the U.S. Especially after many cases where cops have given up chase on suspects that later when to murder others. But I do have a better idea. QUIT RESISTING ARREST. There you go. People in most other countries don't seem to have the problem with that we have in the US.
  - mseebach 10y ago
    That's a great idea. Just do exactly what we say, exactly when we say it, then we won't (possibly, accidentally) kill you!
- mseebach 10y ago
  You're just pushing the problem out one level of abstraction. Why would the utility company agree to help compel a customer? Why would an employer agree to help compel an employee? Ultimately because you compel them to, under similar circumstances. If businesses will generally help punish offenders amongst their customers and employees, you don't really need law enforcement. It's a tangent, but you also have to consider the self-employed survivalist on the ranch. No water to turn off, no employer to compel.

tgarma1234 10y ago

Absolutely agree and I find it baffling we would even be typing this. Breaking laws should not always be punishable by death even if the law you are breaking is "don't resist police authority". Sheesh. "Off with their heads!" is the punishment for everything? That doesn't seem reasonable. There are lots of laws I agree with but that I wouldn't say someone should die if they break it.