8 ms·

I've been something like this for days.. Why are the police pulling people over for busted tailights/etc? Isn't having a yearly car inspection regime enough? Ho

I've been something like this for days.. Why are the police pulling people over for busted tailights/etc? Isn't having a yearly car inspection regime enough? How frequently do tail lights burn out, and is it that critical to everyone's safety that it gets fixed as soon as cop sees it or can it wait for a few months until the state inspection. Don't most cars have some kind of indicator that a light is blown? Basically the vast majority interactions most people have with the police are when they are acting like thugs/tax collectors and enforcing fee's for minor infractions of laws that weren't even on the books more than a couple dozen years ago and for the most part haven't done anything to improve safety. Basically, the police culture seems to focus on over-policing useless things like traffic enforcement while under-policing dangerous parts of town with beat cops.

LeifCarrotson 10y ago
There is no annual inspection in my state (Michigan) and many cars here lack features like that.
mc32 10y ago
I don't know the answer. That said, in other countries lots of the cars which are allowed on the road in the US are not allowed on the roads. Sometimes its vehicle age, sometimes it's not keeping up the vehicle, etc. So, we're not the most demanding --on the other hand, at least as it concerns cities, we don't offer great alternatives in the form of public transit. Rural transit is not typically that much better.
jsprogrammer 10y ago
Non-working lights makes a vehicle unsafe to drive in conditions that require it (night, rain, snow, fog, tunnel). When I used to drive regularly I would often see cars with non-working lights. Most people probably aren't even aware that their light is not working. Anyone who can get the driver's attention and inform them of the problem is performing a service for everyone near roads.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
hockeybias 10y ago
Are you referring to Philando Castillo? Allegedly he was pulled over because he looked like a suspect in a recent robbery in the area.
elchief 10y ago
It's so they can find other infractions, like smoking marijuana
- ThrustVectoring 10y ago
  A stronger argument for random traffic stops is catching people driving with a suspended license.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    Why are you willing to accept that you need to have a license to drive (a car)?
    - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
      Because a road is a safety intensive commons and establishing basic minimum safety standards works. As was said ad infinitum when I was learning to drive - it's a privilege and not a right.
    - wlievens 10y ago
      For reasons of safety?!
      - hellothere999 10y ago
        Yeah cause having a little card in their pocket stops people from driving in an unsafe fashion Also seems to assume license testing is standardized with rigorous instruction regarding safety. Some states don't require anything more than successfully completing a multiple choice test about signals and signs many folks end up ignoring anyway, and a brief on road exam. People go in and drive safely for the 20 mins their subjected to a road test and sink into bad habits all the time. I personally saw a wobbly 75 year old man with shakey hands (he updated his signature wearing coke bottle thick glasses) and a cane get his license renewal rubber stamped Feeling safer already.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
maratd 10y ago
> Basically, the police culture seems to focus on over-policing useless things like traffic enforcement while under-policing dangerous parts of town with beat cops. This is a favored way of policing because it has a ton of advantages for the police and town: 1. You raise revenue. The amount raised more than offsets whatever costs you incur in enforcement. In some towns, it's the majority of their budget. 2. It allows you to screen for prior infractions. Warrants, unpaid tickets, etc. You can then take them into custody and impound the vehicle. The vehicle is extremely liquid and frequently worth quite a bit of $$$. 3. It is much safer than walking the beat in a dangerous part of town. The driver is frequently restricted within the vehicle and the officer has clear visibility into the vehicle. 4. The officer is frequently stationary in the vehicle with his laptop, internet, etc. This is much more comfortable than walking on the street or even actively patrolling in the vehicle. Why go to them, when they can come to you?
timdierks 10y ago
Doesn't really change anything. If you make it so the police won't stop you for a broken tail light, will you keep it so they can stop you for driving with an expired inspection sticker? If so, you have to accept that the consequence may be death for a person who refuses to pull over because their inspection was expired because they had a broken tail light.
- massysett 10y ago
  The operative words here are "refuses to pull over." If people are allowed to run from law enforcement, there is no law enforcement at all.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    If... there is no law enforcement at all. This is the problem in USA, in a nutshell. We have some amorphous mental picture of how law enforcement works, instilled by an unholy mashup of local TV news and cop movies, and we cannot abide any public innovation or experimentation in that. Of course, in so doing, we tolerate all manner of unpublicized "innovation" on the part of LEOs: asset forfeiture, stingray surveillance, parallel construction, profiling, qualified immunity, "special-needs" exceptions, etc. So we have a ratchet in this nation, in which occasional gains in freedom on the part of particular groups are more than offset by regular losses from everyone else. If a nonviolent suspect "runs" from law enforcement, then send her a notice of fine, in the mail. It works for the credit card companies...
    - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
      Right. So if I've kidnapped someone, and have them stashed in my trunk, and I run from the cops, they're going to send me a notice of a fine in the mail. Sure, that'll work. Right...
      - dsfyu404ed 10y ago
        Even with edge cases the overall body count would go down a lot. Once the cops have eyes on a plate number figuring out who was in the vehicle at that time and tracking them down is straightforward and much lower risk.
DanBC 10y ago
Small towns need the money. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm > Are excessive traffic fines and debtors' jails fuelling community tensions in suburban Missouri? Claire Bolderson reports on a network of ninety separate cities in St Louis County, most of which have their own courts and police forces. Critics say that their size makes them financially unviable and allege that some of them boost their incomes by fining their own citizens and locking them up when they can't pay.
- lifeisstillgood 10y ago
  One suspects if they got rid of their own expensive courts and police forces they might not need the fine revenue. :/)
niftich 10y ago
Most cars don't come with indicators that a light is blown. It's unsafe to drive around with non-working lights, mostly because it interferes with other drivers' expectations (working brake-lights and working tail-lights, light geometry allows guesstimation of car dimensions), but also because it can impair the driver's own visibility. But presumably these could be dealt with friendly warnings, and not a cause for fines or arrest. However, once the traffic stop is made, the officer has wide berth on how to respond, making it ultimately very subjective.
Mendenhall 10y ago
Just a side note. Living in the states I went to make a left turn. I turned on my signal and waited for oncoming traffic to clear. I was about to make a left and someone behind me passed me on the left! I almost turned right into him as he flew past. I wondered what the heck happened why would he pass on left. I pulled in driveway and tested my blinker and it was out. Not using that to refute your premise, it just made me think of it.
- runamok 10y ago
  I can't think of a scenario where you were able to do a legal left turn and it was legal to pass you on the left so they were almost certainly doing something illegal or you were not in the correct lane to turn left...
  - x1798DE 10y ago
    On a one lane road with a broken single yellow line, possibly turning into a driveway. I generally get very cautious about people going way too slow for a road and wouldn't whip past them, but possibly the other driver thought that OP was stalled?
    - Mendenhall 10y ago
      That was the road scenario. I had brake lights and only had been stopped for 30 seconds or so. I am pretty cautious as well and happened to look back a little and saw them just in time. It was a SUV also so that could have been very bad.
superuser2 10y ago
>can it wait for a few months until the state inspection I see cars whose bodies are 75% duct-taped garbage bags on a daily basis. I hear cars with nonworking mufflers on a daily basis. Our culture is that if you don't have the cash on hand or the inclination to repair your car after a devastating crash or serious failure (but it still drives), you simply keep driving it. I'm pretty sure the extent of "inspection" in the handful of locales where it exists is "is it throwing any emissions-related OBD codes?"
- jessaustin 10y ago
  Congratulations on having driven fairly new cars your whole life. b^)
wl 10y ago
If you're alluding to the Philando Castile shooting, he wasn't pulled over because of his tail lights, which were actually working[1]. Rather, the police officer thought that Castile looked like a robbery suspect[2] and the tail light thing was just a pretext. [1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3681591/That-taillight-working-fine-Witness-rubbishes-police-claim-Philando-Castile-death-streamed-Facebook-pulled-busted-light-car.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3681591/That-taillig... [2] http://www.kare11.com/news/police-scanner-audio-1/267042738 http://www.kare11.com/news/police-scanner-audio-1/267042738
- jedmeyers 10y ago
  It would have been unwise to tell a robbery suspect "please sit tight since I think you look similar to the robber from the recent BOLO alert [1]". If the person is not the actual robber it would bring unnecessary tension; and if he is, then he will know that there is already no way out, since the police is onto him. [1] BOLO - "Be on the lookout"
- jsprogrammer 10y ago
  Your #2 link says that the relevant police have not confirmed the authenticity of the recording from an unnamed source..and the article was posted three days ago and contains 9 spamvertisements.
  - wl 10y ago
    The #2 link seems to be the closest we have to the original source. It's a news gathering operation run by the CBS broadcast television affiliate in the MSP region where the events in question transpired. The person making the scanner recording hasn't posted it anywhere that I know of. If you know of a better source, I'll gladly change the link, but this is the source everyone else is ultimately linking to. As for the police not verifying the recording, that's not unusual. Police don't tend to comment on pending investigations unless they need something from the public. In any case, the shooter's attorney has largely confirmed the information in the recording[1]. It could still be a fake, but if it is, it's a good one based on information not publicly available until days later. [1] http://www.startribune.com/lawyer-castile-pulled-over-because-he-matched-robbery-suspect/386221031/ http://www.startribune.com/lawyer-castile-pulled-over-becaus...
ArkyBeagle 10y ago
Cops operate with the logic of predators[1]. If something "looks fishy" they figure it is fishy. Most of the problems with police/citizen interaction have to do with citizens not behaving in a manner that supports the severe information asymmetries of those encounters. [1] I don't mean they ARE predators, but that the information processing they use looks like what predators use - a detail out of place will trigger interest in further evaluation.
- smt88 10y ago
  > a detail out of place will trigger interest in further evaluation Non-predators behave this way as well. I think you meant to say that police operate with the logic of animals that aren't inherently afraid of their surroundings, which makes sense. Police shouldn't be afraid to investigate.
  - hellothere999 10y ago
    That's kind of open ended. Unfortunately we've seen time again the police can't be trusted to self police. And they'll mace, taze, or shoot anyone that doesn't obey. But they should have carte Blanche to poke at anything anywhere anytime they please? Yeah no. There should be a set of limits which they're trained in. And they should be afraid to investigate outside those limits. Id rather tie their hands than allow a bunch of GI Joe wannabes do whatever they please.
    - smt88 10y ago
      > they should have carte Blanche to poke at anything anywhere anytime they please They don't. We have really, really extensive laws (including the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution) preventing them from doing that. If they illegally search you, the evidence is useless (and often the conviction becomes impossible). What you're describing is something out of 1984, not the reality of the hundreds of millions of police interactions in the US every year.
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    Perhaps I'm old school ( or perhaps warped :) but I do divide animals into predators and prey ( at least in pairwise relationships ) . The salient difference is exactly what you describe. There are, of course, animals that are neither but they're fewer in number. Police are "front-eyed".
leepowers 10y ago
Because driving with a busted taillight is illegal? I've had a similar situation where I had an electrical problem and the taillights were out in my car. (Brake lights still worked). Got pulled over and cited for driving without insurance. The original investigation into a minor traffic violation escalated to a bigger infraction, and a bigger fine. It's a very common police tactic to start with a minor infraction then investigate to find any further violations. This isn't wrong, and is actually good police work. But it can be easy to abuse if applied with a racial bias, or some other prejudice. (And which is why independent police oversight is a necessity. Not just for high-profile killings, but also for monitoring how law enforcement operates in the community in small ways).

LeifCarrotson 10y ago

There is no annual inspection in my state (Michigan) and many cars here lack features like that.

mc32 10y ago

I don't know the answer. That said, in other countries lots of the cars which are allowed on the road in the US are not allowed on the roads. Sometimes its vehicle age, sometimes it's not keeping up the vehicle, etc. So, we're not the most demanding --on the other hand, at least as it concerns cities, we don't offer great alternatives in the form of public transit. Rural transit is not typically that much better.

jsprogrammer 10y ago

Non-working lights makes a vehicle unsafe to drive in conditions that require it (night, rain, snow, fog, tunnel). When I used to drive regularly I would often see cars with non-working lights. Most people probably aren't even aware that their light is not working. Anyone who can get the driver's attention and inform them of the problem is performing a service for everyone near roads.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

hockeybias 10y ago

Are you referring to Philando Castillo? Allegedly he was pulled over because he looked like a suspect in a recent robbery in the area.

elchief 10y ago

It's so they can find other infractions, like smoking marijuana

ThrustVectoring 10y ago
A stronger argument for random traffic stops is catching people driving with a suspended license.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  Why are you willing to accept that you need to have a license to drive (a car)?
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    Because a road is a safety intensive commons and establishing basic minimum safety standards works. As was said ad infinitum when I was learning to drive - it's a privilege and not a right.
  - wlievens 10y ago
    For reasons of safety?!
    - hellothere999 10y ago
      Yeah cause having a little card in their pocket stops people from driving in an unsafe fashion Also seems to assume license testing is standardized with rigorous instruction regarding safety. Some states don't require anything more than successfully completing a multiple choice test about signals and signs many folks end up ignoring anyway, and a brief on road exam. People go in and drive safely for the 20 mins their subjected to a road test and sink into bad habits all the time. I personally saw a wobbly 75 year old man with shakey hands (he updated his signature wearing coke bottle thick glasses) and a cane get his license renewal rubber stamped Feeling safer already.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago

maratd 10y ago

> Basically, the police culture seems to focus on over-policing useless things like traffic enforcement while under-policing dangerous parts of town with beat cops. This is a favored way of policing because it has a ton of advantages for the police and town: 1. You raise revenue. The amount raised more than offsets whatever costs you incur in enforcement. In some towns, it's the majority of their budget. 2. It allows you to screen for prior infractions. Warrants, unpaid tickets, etc. You can then take them into custody and impound the vehicle. The vehicle is extremely liquid and frequently worth quite a bit of $$$. 3. It is much safer than walking the beat in a dangerous part of town. The driver is frequently restricted within the vehicle and the officer has clear visibility into the vehicle. 4. The officer is frequently stationary in the vehicle with his laptop, internet, etc. This is much more comfortable than walking on the street or even actively patrolling in the vehicle. Why go to them, when they can come to you?

timdierks 10y ago

Doesn't really change anything. If you make it so the police won't stop you for a broken tail light, will you keep it so they can stop you for driving with an expired inspection sticker? If so, you have to accept that the consequence may be death for a person who refuses to pull over because their inspection was expired because they had a broken tail light.

massysett 10y ago
The operative words here are "refuses to pull over." If people are allowed to run from law enforcement, there is no law enforcement at all.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  If... there is no law enforcement at all. This is the problem in USA, in a nutshell. We have some amorphous mental picture of how law enforcement works, instilled by an unholy mashup of local TV news and cop movies, and we cannot abide any public innovation or experimentation in that. Of course, in so doing, we tolerate all manner of unpublicized "innovation" on the part of LEOs: asset forfeiture, stingray surveillance, parallel construction, profiling, qualified immunity, "special-needs" exceptions, etc. So we have a ratchet in this nation, in which occasional gains in freedom on the part of particular groups are more than offset by regular losses from everyone else. If a nonviolent suspect "runs" from law enforcement, then send her a notice of fine, in the mail. It works for the credit card companies...
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    Right. So if I've kidnapped someone, and have them stashed in my trunk, and I run from the cops, they're going to send me a notice of a fine in the mail. Sure, that'll work. Right...
    - dsfyu404ed 10y ago
      Even with edge cases the overall body count would go down a lot. Once the cops have eyes on a plate number figuring out who was in the vehicle at that time and tracking them down is straightforward and much lower risk.

DanBC 10y ago

Small towns need the money. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm > Are excessive traffic fines and debtors' jails fuelling community tensions in suburban Missouri? Claire Bolderson reports on a network of ninety separate cities in St Louis County, most of which have their own courts and police forces. Critics say that their size makes them financially unviable and allege that some of them boost their incomes by fining their own citizens and locking them up when they can't pay.

lifeisstillgood 10y ago
One suspects if they got rid of their own expensive courts and police forces they might not need the fine revenue. :/)

niftich 10y ago

Most cars don't come with indicators that a light is blown. It's unsafe to drive around with non-working lights, mostly because it interferes with other drivers' expectations (working brake-lights and working tail-lights, light geometry allows guesstimation of car dimensions), but also because it can impair the driver's own visibility. But presumably these could be dealt with friendly warnings, and not a cause for fines or arrest. However, once the traffic stop is made, the officer has wide berth on how to respond, making it ultimately very subjective.

Mendenhall 10y ago

Just a side note. Living in the states I went to make a left turn. I turned on my signal and waited for oncoming traffic to clear. I was about to make a left and someone behind me passed me on the left! I almost turned right into him as he flew past. I wondered what the heck happened why would he pass on left. I pulled in driveway and tested my blinker and it was out. Not using that to refute your premise, it just made me think of it.

runamok 10y ago
I can't think of a scenario where you were able to do a legal left turn and it was legal to pass you on the left so they were almost certainly doing something illegal or you were not in the correct lane to turn left...
- x1798DE 10y ago
  On a one lane road with a broken single yellow line, possibly turning into a driveway. I generally get very cautious about people going way too slow for a road and wouldn't whip past them, but possibly the other driver thought that OP was stalled?
  - Mendenhall 10y ago
    That was the road scenario. I had brake lights and only had been stopped for 30 seconds or so. I am pretty cautious as well and happened to look back a little and saw them just in time. It was a SUV also so that could have been very bad.

superuser2 10y ago

>can it wait for a few months until the state inspection I see cars whose bodies are 75% duct-taped garbage bags on a daily basis. I hear cars with nonworking mufflers on a daily basis. Our culture is that if you don't have the cash on hand or the inclination to repair your car after a devastating crash or serious failure (but it still drives), you simply keep driving it. I'm pretty sure the extent of "inspection" in the handful of locales where it exists is "is it throwing any emissions-related OBD codes?"

jessaustin 10y ago
Congratulations on having driven fairly new cars your whole life. b^)

wl 10y ago

If you're alluding to the Philando Castile shooting, he wasn't pulled over because of his tail lights, which were actually working[1]. Rather, the police officer thought that Castile looked like a robbery suspect[2] and the tail light thing was just a pretext. [1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3681591/That-taillight-working-fine-Witness-rubbishes-police-claim-Philando-Castile-death-streamed-Facebook-pulled-busted-light-car.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3681591/That-taillig... [2] http://www.kare11.com/news/police-scanner-audio-1/267042738 http://www.kare11.com/news/police-scanner-audio-1/267042738

jedmeyers 10y ago
It would have been unwise to tell a robbery suspect "please sit tight since I think you look similar to the robber from the recent BOLO alert [1]". If the person is not the actual robber it would bring unnecessary tension; and if he is, then he will know that there is already no way out, since the police is onto him. [1] BOLO - "Be on the lookout"
jsprogrammer 10y ago
Your #2 link says that the relevant police have not confirmed the authenticity of the recording from an unnamed source..and the article was posted three days ago and contains 9 spamvertisements.
- wl 10y ago
  The #2 link seems to be the closest we have to the original source. It's a news gathering operation run by the CBS broadcast television affiliate in the MSP region where the events in question transpired. The person making the scanner recording hasn't posted it anywhere that I know of. If you know of a better source, I'll gladly change the link, but this is the source everyone else is ultimately linking to. As for the police not verifying the recording, that's not unusual. Police don't tend to comment on pending investigations unless they need something from the public. In any case, the shooter's attorney has largely confirmed the information in the recording[1]. It could still be a fake, but if it is, it's a good one based on information not publicly available until days later. [1] http://www.startribune.com/lawyer-castile-pulled-over-because-he-matched-robbery-suspect/386221031/ http://www.startribune.com/lawyer-castile-pulled-over-becaus...

ArkyBeagle 10y ago

Cops operate with the logic of predators[1]. If something "looks fishy" they figure it is fishy. Most of the problems with police/citizen interaction have to do with citizens not behaving in a manner that supports the severe information asymmetries of those encounters. [1] I don't mean they ARE predators, but that the information processing they use looks like what predators use - a detail out of place will trigger interest in further evaluation.

smt88 10y ago
> a detail out of place will trigger interest in further evaluation Non-predators behave this way as well. I think you meant to say that police operate with the logic of animals that aren't inherently afraid of their surroundings, which makes sense. Police shouldn't be afraid to investigate.
- hellothere999 10y ago
  That's kind of open ended. Unfortunately we've seen time again the police can't be trusted to self police. And they'll mace, taze, or shoot anyone that doesn't obey. But they should have carte Blanche to poke at anything anywhere anytime they please? Yeah no. There should be a set of limits which they're trained in. And they should be afraid to investigate outside those limits. Id rather tie their hands than allow a bunch of GI Joe wannabes do whatever they please.
  - smt88 10y ago
    > they should have carte Blanche to poke at anything anywhere anytime they please They don't. We have really, really extensive laws (including the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution) preventing them from doing that. If they illegally search you, the evidence is useless (and often the conviction becomes impossible). What you're describing is something out of 1984, not the reality of the hundreds of millions of police interactions in the US every year.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  Perhaps I'm old school ( or perhaps warped :) but I do divide animals into predators and prey ( at least in pairwise relationships ) . The salient difference is exactly what you describe. There are, of course, animals that are neither but they're fewer in number. Police are "front-eyed".

leepowers 10y ago

Because driving with a busted taillight is illegal? I've had a similar situation where I had an electrical problem and the taillights were out in my car. (Brake lights still worked). Got pulled over and cited for driving without insurance. The original investigation into a minor traffic violation escalated to a bigger infraction, and a bigger fine. It's a very common police tactic to start with a minor infraction then investigate to find any further violations. This isn't wrong, and is actually good police work. But it can be easy to abuse if applied with a racial bias, or some other prejudice. (And which is why independent police oversight is a necessity. Not just for high-profile killings, but also for monitoring how law enforcement operates in the community in small ways).