5 ms·

I have long argued for a non means-tested welfare state that is not a safety net but a foundation on which to build your life. Here in the UK there is much res

I have long argued for a non means-tested welfare state that is not a safety net but a foundation on which to build your life. Here in the UK there is much resentment to people who receive benefits. I have been someone who lived on benefits because I could, not because I needed to. I spent that time learning new skills and overall have been a net contributor. But I also know people who have no intention of personal improvement who plan to spend their entire lives on handouts. I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution. Don't trick yourself into thinking the Nordic model is the greatest though. I spent 6 months there in Finland and predict a lot of social pain in the next decade. Growing unemployment will put strain on the social services. Multinationals have been allowed in which means profits sucked abroad via Wal-mart, Lidl and a host of others. The brain drain to other parts of the EU will also grow, if the students I met fulfil their ambitions.

jomamaxx 10y ago
"I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution." While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? The US doesn't 'breed' anything - communities 'breed' themselves. I suggest the US could do a little better with the social safety net, and possibly some basic healthcare guarantees, but having 60% taxes, 30% payroll tax and 20% VAT meaning the average worker putting 75% of their income directly towards government spending is not going to work either. The 'Nordic Model' can only work in small countries, with small, tight ethnic groups and cultural foundations. Nordic Countries almost all have Monarchies, State Churches (Sweden gives 1% of it's tax revenues to their Christian State Church - could you imagine that in the US?). I'm not saying 'faith' is an important factor, rather pointing out the relatively cohesive social identity. And yes, you are right: UK and Germany are sucking up talent like vacuums.
- Retric 10y ago
  Well ignoring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... United Nations (2014)[6] lists US as 12th, which is not bad. But, has been falling for a while. Norway for example seems to be ahead by ~30% despite a huge safety net. Of course by PPP we seem to be stuck at ~25: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IMF_ranked_countries_by_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IMF_ranked_countries_b...
  - aetherson 10y ago
    And the lesson of Norway is: "Find a gigantic amount of oil." :P The point that the US does not have the highest GDP per capita in the world is well-taken (what it has the highest is overall GDP). But Norway's path to prosperity is not generalizable.
    - Retric 10y ago
      US actually found a ginormous amount of oil, which is a large part of why it's GDP is that high. We currently out produce Saudi Arabia and regained #1. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=a https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=m... ED: bad math. PS: The US problem was it got addicted to the stuff pumping most of it out early while the price was low and then stuck paying more during price spikes.
      - aetherson 10y ago
        Well, sure. But Norway's production is 1.9 million barrels per day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ...), and its population is 5.1 million, so 1.9M * 40 * 365 / 5.1M = $5.4K per person per year. The US's GDP would be yet higher if it could sustain an increase in petroleum production by 75% or so.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        Retric 10y ago
        Sorry, redid my math. Even if you assume 5.4k/person from oil with zero costs there is a 30k/person per year difference in nominal GDP. And a much larger gap in PPP.
        aetherson 10y ago
        Well, sure. And Sweden and Denmark have pretty comparable GDPs to the US, and Finland is notably lower than the US. What's your narrative here? Is the Norway vs. Sweden difference due to something OTHER than oil? They're very similar countries! If you're seeing the Norway vs. Sweden thing as due to something other than oil, what are you arguing is unique to Norway? If you do agree that Norway's GDP/capita advantage over its neighbors is due to oil, you have to accept that a resource advantage that produces a few thousand dollars/year in direct purchase, basically stimulates AD to the point where the entire economy goes up and snowballs into a few tens of thousands of dollars per year. To be clear, I don't think that our views are wildly distinct. I'm not a hater of the Nordic countries. But Norway is an outlier from the other Nordics, and the only plausible explanation I can come up with for its outlier status is oil. So I don't think it's a very useful reference point.
- SixSigma 10y ago
  I've never seen poverty in developed nations like I did in Atlanta, except maybe in Aborigines of Perth, Australia. It seems to me, although I haven't lived it, that food stamps cause more problems than cash handouts.
  - 97s 10y ago
    I live about 30 minutes North of Atlanta and go there once a week for hospital treatments. A lot of people drive through Atlanta on the popular streets and think, wow this place is wonderful! I love it here. What they don't realize is if you turn down 2-3 streets off the main road, its nothing but shambles and poverty.
  - flubert 10y ago
    Rates of homelessness: US: 633782 / 314000000 => 202 homeless per 100,000 Finland: 7877 / 5363000 => 147 homeless per 100,000 Based off of numbers from (YMMV, maybe someone can check my math): http://www.housingfirst.fi/en/housing_first/homelessness_in_finland http://www.housingfirst.fi/en/housing_first/homelessness_in_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Sta... https://www.google.com/#q=population+of+finland+in+2010 https://www.google.com/#q=population+of+finland+in+2010 https://www.google.com/#q=population+of+usa+in+2012 https://www.google.com/#q=population+of+usa+in+2012
    - lastyearman 10y ago
      In Finland some people choose to be homeless - in summer. When winter comes they no longer choose to be homeless or they will freeze to death. So anyone who wants an apartment will get one.
    - SixSigma 10y ago
      In the welfare state homelessness is not really a reflection of poverty. It is more a proxy for mental health or drug addiction. If you can do a reasonable impression of someone interested in looking for a job then you will get your rent paid directly to a landlord and about $100 per week put into a bank account.
- Veratyr 10y ago
  > While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? Producing these things and breeding crime, poverty and prostitution are not mutually exclusive. The people receiving the benefits of the high GDP are not the same people that are committing crimes and living in poverty. Also "the highest GDP per captia in the world" is not correct. By most accounts (IMF, World Bank, UN) the US is around the bottom half of the top 10, both nominal and PPP adjusted. Certainly high but not on top by any account.

jomamaxx 10y ago

"I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution." While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? The US doesn't 'breed' anything - communities 'breed' themselves. I suggest the US could do a little better with the social safety net, and possibly some basic healthcare guarantees, but having 60% taxes, 30% payroll tax and 20% VAT meaning the average worker putting 75% of their income directly towards government spending is not going to work either. The 'Nordic Model' can only work in small countries, with small, tight ethnic groups and cultural foundations. Nordic Countries almost all have Monarchies, State Churches (Sweden gives 1% of it's tax revenues to their Christian State Church - could you imagine that in the US?). I'm not saying 'faith' is an important factor, rather pointing out the relatively cohesive social identity. And yes, you are right: UK and Germany are sucking up talent like vacuums.

Retric 10y ago
Well ignoring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... United Nations (2014)[6] lists US as 12th, which is not bad. But, has been falling for a while. Norway for example seems to be ahead by ~30% despite a huge safety net. Of course by PPP we seem to be stuck at ~25: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IMF_ranked_countries_by_GDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IMF_ranked_countries_b...
- aetherson 10y ago
  And the lesson of Norway is: "Find a gigantic amount of oil." :P The point that the US does not have the highest GDP per capita in the world is well-taken (what it has the highest is overall GDP). But Norway's path to prosperity is not generalizable.
  - Retric 10y ago
    US actually found a ginormous amount of oil, which is a large part of why it's GDP is that high. We currently out produce Saudi Arabia and regained #1. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=a https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=m... ED: bad math. PS: The US problem was it got addicted to the stuff pumping most of it out early while the price was low and then stuck paying more during price spikes.
    - aetherson 10y ago
      Well, sure. But Norway's production is 1.9 million barrels per day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ...), and its population is 5.1 million, so 1.9M * 40 * 365 / 5.1M = $5.4K per person per year. The US's GDP would be yet higher if it could sustain an increase in petroleum production by 75% or so.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - Retric 10y ago
        Sorry, redid my math. Even if you assume 5.4k/person from oil with zero costs there is a 30k/person per year difference in nominal GDP. And a much larger gap in PPP.
        aetherson 10y ago
        Well, sure. And Sweden and Denmark have pretty comparable GDPs to the US, and Finland is notably lower than the US. What's your narrative here? Is the Norway vs. Sweden difference due to something OTHER than oil? They're very similar countries! If you're seeing the Norway vs. Sweden thing as due to something other than oil, what are you arguing is unique to Norway? If you do agree that Norway's GDP/capita advantage over its neighbors is due to oil, you have to accept that a resource advantage that produces a few thousand dollars/year in direct purchase, basically stimulates AD to the point where the entire economy goes up and snowballs into a few tens of thousands of dollars per year. To be clear, I don't think that our views are wildly distinct. I'm not a hater of the Nordic countries. But Norway is an outlier from the other Nordics, and the only plausible explanation I can come up with for its outlier status is oil. So I don't think it's a very useful reference point.
SixSigma 10y ago
I've never seen poverty in developed nations like I did in Atlanta, except maybe in Aborigines of Perth, Australia. It seems to me, although I haven't lived it, that food stamps cause more problems than cash handouts.
- 97s 10y ago
  I live about 30 minutes North of Atlanta and go there once a week for hospital treatments. A lot of people drive through Atlanta on the popular streets and think, wow this place is wonderful! I love it here. What they don't realize is if you turn down 2-3 streets off the main road, its nothing but shambles and poverty.
- flubert 10y ago
  Rates of homelessness: US: 633782 / 314000000 => 202 homeless per 100,000 Finland: 7877 / 5363000 => 147 homeless per 100,000 Based off of numbers from (YMMV, maybe someone can check my math): http://www.housingfirst.fi/en/housing_first/homelessness_in_finland http://www.housingfirst.fi/en/housing_first/homelessness_in_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Sta... https://www.google.com/#q=population+of+finland+in+2010 https://www.google.com/#q=population+of+finland+in+2010 https://www.google.com/#q=population+of+usa+in+2012 https://www.google.com/#q=population+of+usa+in+2012
  - lastyearman 10y ago
    In Finland some people choose to be homeless - in summer. When winter comes they no longer choose to be homeless or they will freeze to death. So anyone who wants an apartment will get one.
  - SixSigma 10y ago
    In the welfare state homelessness is not really a reflection of poverty. It is more a proxy for mental health or drug addiction. If you can do a reasonable impression of someone interested in looking for a job then you will get your rent paid directly to a landlord and about $100 per week put into a bank account.
Veratyr 10y ago
> While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? Producing these things and breeding crime, poverty and prostitution are not mutually exclusive. The people receiving the benefits of the high GDP are not the same people that are committing crimes and living in poverty. Also "the highest GDP per captia in the world" is not correct. By most accounts (IMF, World Bank, UN) the US is around the bottom half of the top 10, both nominal and PPP adjusted. Certainly high but not on top by any account.