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Why are people focusing on downvotes other than upvoting what's important? If you upvote important comments, the ones you dislike will fade away... so why focu

Why are people focusing on downvotes other than upvoting what's important? If you upvote important comments, the ones you dislike will fade away... so why focusing on so much negativity? Does it makes anyone feel better downvoting an opinion they disagree with? Why not try to prove your point instead, adding your comment and upvoting the ones you like the most?

vmateixeira 10y ago
Again, here we go.. the invisible hand, the warrior without face.. and my comment being downvoted... Do people really read 1k+ comment threads? Isn't this supposed to work as a community? If people would upvote comments they agree with wouldn't the most voted ones be on top? So what's wrong with what I just said?
- projectramo 10y ago
  Well, suppose you think a comment is really bad for whatever reason (pick the vilest comment you can think of for political, personal, or other reasons.) It is unhelpful, angry, incoherent and whatever else. Now for some reason the person has some friends who upvoted the comment. Do you really think you want to express your displeasure by upvoting every other comment relatively speaking? What if you don't particularly like any of the other comments, or don't have time to read them all?
  - vmateixeira 10y ago
    I agree that upvoting every other comment is not a solution. But maybe the 'art of ignore' is. If no one would comment, that someone would eventually give up. After all, that's what those bad comments are seeking for: attention, support of any kind or just annoying someone. Have you thought that by downvoting you could be leaking to that person that he/she annoyed you, therefore empowering him/her to continue with such bad comments? In the other hand, if you downvote a comment just because you disagree with it you may be leading that person to give up on commenting/contributing.
    - projectramo 10y ago
      The purpose of downvoting is not to signal your displeasure to the person making the comment. It is to lower the priority of the comment for the majority of regular viewers, and to replace it with the better comments.
- dpark 10y ago
  An upvote and a downvote are just two faces of the same thing. Upvoting everything you think adds to the conversation is functionally the same as downvoting everything you don't think adds to the conversation. You aren't more positive just because you prefer upvotes to downvotes. By choosing to not use downvotes, what you're actually doing is treating neutral comments (that neither add nor detract from the conversation) the same as comments that actively detract. You are making your rating binary when you don't have to. I'll be entirely honest, I downvoted your comment. The question was about why downvotes are sometimes not available, and your comment about how it's negative to use downvotes at all seems unhelpful. So I downvoted it. I don't feel like that makes me negative. I also don't feel like it makes me positive when I upvote. I'm helping the comments sort more effectively, that's all. Also, complaining about downvotes is also a sure way to get more.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    That would all be true, except for the greying-out thing. Its quite a bit different to downvote, particularly as an early responder. It can make disagreement appear as disapproval.
    - dpark 10y ago
      Do comments turn gray after a single downvote? I honestly don't know. I personally don't care much about whether comments are gray unless they've turned the "I can barely read this" gray. The standard (first level?) gray just tells me that someone (or a couple of people) downvoted the comment, but that doesn't mean much. I've often "rescued" gray comments. The ultra-light gray often does indicate something and I'm less likely to read those.
  - vmateixeira 10y ago
    Thank you for your explanation. It was helpful on understanding your motion towards upvoting and downvoting. I upvoted it, and am now explaining you why, because I think this is how we should justify ourselves. I kind of agree on you downvoting my comment for being off-topic, but is it really? I think I tried to bring something to this discussion, although not necessarily answering the OP question. Anyway, it's up to the individual but I think we shouldn't be that closed. Otherwise this would be solely a Q/A forum. Regarding the downvotes, I was already aware of that, and was expecting them. I don't care much about the 'karma' thing and am now actually thrilled to see the outcome of this experiment. I give much more value to an answer like yours, as I can learn with it, than the whole point system really. Thanks!
dpark 10y ago
These are not mutually exclusive. It's possible to both upvote comments you like and downvote comments you think don't add to the conversation.
biot 10y ago
Voting gives a sense of agency in that one can influence HN in a positive way. By upvoting, I am making HN more positive by promoting comments that I think add to the discussion. By downvoting, I am making HN more positive by demoting comments that I think detract from the discussion. That you think a downvote is focusing on negativity says more about you than those who downvote. To be honest, I find your attempts to convince others not to use a core feature of HN to be negative and, as such, I've voted accordingly.
- vmateixeira 10y ago
  Thank you for your answer. I think you made my point actually. By commenting, you gave me the opportunity to discuss with you and we now can both learn from it. For me it became more than a downvote, it became positive.
  - biot 10y ago
    I sometimes both downvote and reply when I feel that it would be helpful. At other times, the comment is self-evident as to why it was downvoted (and/or already has replies from others) and a reply only adds noise instead of signal. The signal I'm adding is "-1 fake internet points".
    - vmateixeira 10y ago
      Ok, I can see your point but why downvote other than leaving it as is, for the reasons I wrote down below? Edit: The reasons I wrote as a reply to user projectramo
      - biot 10y ago
        If nobody downvoted, then the author of the comment would be unable to distinguish between "the community doesn't value my comment" and "my comment was ignored". A downvote sends a clear signal vs. a lack of signal which is important to establishing/maintaining community norms. If we didn't have that signal, there might be reddit-style pun chains on HN and new users who see that might think it's accepted by the community since those threads are indistinguishable from other comments due to the scores being hidden. Seeing comments downvoted to grey is an important signal. Of course, replying is also a signal but it's not appropriate in every circumstance. It's redundant when sibling comments provide correct information vs. the downvoted comment's incorrect information and an in-context reading of the thread will make that apparent. Or when the downvoted comment is flamebait/trolling and you don't want feed the trolls. Or when the comment clearly doesn't fit the community norms. And, most importantly, I have neither the time nor the inclination to reply to every comment on HN offering constructive feedback so I pick and choose carefully when I do that... as I'm doing here. Long story short, HN deemed it acceptable to allow users with a minimum karma level to downvote. It's a feature, not a bug, and as long as it's used with discretion it sends a valuable signal to the comment's author. That feedback mechanism also confers positive benefits to the entire community.

vmateixeira 10y ago

Again, here we go.. the invisible hand, the warrior without face.. and my comment being downvoted... Do people really read 1k+ comment threads? Isn't this supposed to work as a community? If people would upvote comments they agree with wouldn't the most voted ones be on top? So what's wrong with what I just said?

projectramo 10y ago
Well, suppose you think a comment is really bad for whatever reason (pick the vilest comment you can think of for political, personal, or other reasons.) It is unhelpful, angry, incoherent and whatever else. Now for some reason the person has some friends who upvoted the comment. Do you really think you want to express your displeasure by upvoting every other comment relatively speaking? What if you don't particularly like any of the other comments, or don't have time to read them all?
- vmateixeira 10y ago
  I agree that upvoting every other comment is not a solution. But maybe the 'art of ignore' is. If no one would comment, that someone would eventually give up. After all, that's what those bad comments are seeking for: attention, support of any kind or just annoying someone. Have you thought that by downvoting you could be leaking to that person that he/she annoyed you, therefore empowering him/her to continue with such bad comments? In the other hand, if you downvote a comment just because you disagree with it you may be leading that person to give up on commenting/contributing.
  - projectramo 10y ago
    The purpose of downvoting is not to signal your displeasure to the person making the comment. It is to lower the priority of the comment for the majority of regular viewers, and to replace it with the better comments.
dpark 10y ago
An upvote and a downvote are just two faces of the same thing. Upvoting everything you think adds to the conversation is functionally the same as downvoting everything you don't think adds to the conversation. You aren't more positive just because you prefer upvotes to downvotes. By choosing to not use downvotes, what you're actually doing is treating neutral comments (that neither add nor detract from the conversation) the same as comments that actively detract. You are making your rating binary when you don't have to. I'll be entirely honest, I downvoted your comment. The question was about why downvotes are sometimes not available, and your comment about how it's negative to use downvotes at all seems unhelpful. So I downvoted it. I don't feel like that makes me negative. I also don't feel like it makes me positive when I upvote. I'm helping the comments sort more effectively, that's all. Also, complaining about downvotes is also a sure way to get more.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  That would all be true, except for the greying-out thing. Its quite a bit different to downvote, particularly as an early responder. It can make disagreement appear as disapproval.
  - dpark 10y ago
    Do comments turn gray after a single downvote? I honestly don't know. I personally don't care much about whether comments are gray unless they've turned the "I can barely read this" gray. The standard (first level?) gray just tells me that someone (or a couple of people) downvoted the comment, but that doesn't mean much. I've often "rescued" gray comments. The ultra-light gray often does indicate something and I'm less likely to read those.
- vmateixeira 10y ago
  Thank you for your explanation. It was helpful on understanding your motion towards upvoting and downvoting. I upvoted it, and am now explaining you why, because I think this is how we should justify ourselves. I kind of agree on you downvoting my comment for being off-topic, but is it really? I think I tried to bring something to this discussion, although not necessarily answering the OP question. Anyway, it's up to the individual but I think we shouldn't be that closed. Otherwise this would be solely a Q/A forum. Regarding the downvotes, I was already aware of that, and was expecting them. I don't care much about the 'karma' thing and am now actually thrilled to see the outcome of this experiment. I give much more value to an answer like yours, as I can learn with it, than the whole point system really. Thanks!

dpark 10y ago

These are not mutually exclusive. It's possible to both upvote comments you like and downvote comments you think don't add to the conversation.

biot 10y ago

Voting gives a sense of agency in that one can influence HN in a positive way. By upvoting, I am making HN more positive by promoting comments that I think add to the discussion. By downvoting, I am making HN more positive by demoting comments that I think detract from the discussion. That you think a downvote is focusing on negativity says more about you than those who downvote. To be honest, I find your attempts to convince others not to use a core feature of HN to be negative and, as such, I've voted accordingly.

vmateixeira 10y ago
Thank you for your answer. I think you made my point actually. By commenting, you gave me the opportunity to discuss with you and we now can both learn from it. For me it became more than a downvote, it became positive.
- biot 10y ago
  I sometimes both downvote and reply when I feel that it would be helpful. At other times, the comment is self-evident as to why it was downvoted (and/or already has replies from others) and a reply only adds noise instead of signal. The signal I'm adding is "-1 fake internet points".
  - vmateixeira 10y ago
    Ok, I can see your point but why downvote other than leaving it as is, for the reasons I wrote down below? Edit: The reasons I wrote as a reply to user projectramo
    - biot 10y ago
      If nobody downvoted, then the author of the comment would be unable to distinguish between "the community doesn't value my comment" and "my comment was ignored". A downvote sends a clear signal vs. a lack of signal which is important to establishing/maintaining community norms. If we didn't have that signal, there might be reddit-style pun chains on HN and new users who see that might think it's accepted by the community since those threads are indistinguishable from other comments due to the scores being hidden. Seeing comments downvoted to grey is an important signal. Of course, replying is also a signal but it's not appropriate in every circumstance. It's redundant when sibling comments provide correct information vs. the downvoted comment's incorrect information and an in-context reading of the thread will make that apparent. Or when the downvoted comment is flamebait/trolling and you don't want feed the trolls. Or when the comment clearly doesn't fit the community norms. And, most importantly, I have neither the time nor the inclination to reply to every comment on HN offering constructive feedback so I pick and choose carefully when I do that... as I'm doing here. Long story short, HN deemed it acceptable to allow users with a minimum karma level to downvote. It's a feature, not a bug, and as long as it's used with discretion it sends a valuable signal to the comment's author. That feedback mechanism also confers positive benefits to the entire community.