5 ms·

Linus Torvalds in sweary rant about punctuation in kernel comments

31 points by sebhack 10y ago

jswny 10y ago
I really don't think this is an important topic and the article is of little substance with a fairly clickbaity image to top it all off. However, I do agree that the comment styles mentioned in the article that Torvalds supposedly dislikes are ugly. Code should look appealing when possible for sure, no reason to use those unbalanced comment styles.
- luso_brazilian 10y ago
  To add to that the author really seems to have an axe to grind with Linus. The suggested read on "More from The Register" links, all accompanied by the same "Linux middle finger" or "Linux Nuttella" images: > Linus Torvalds in sweary rant about punctuation in kernel comments: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/11/linus_torvalds_in_sweary_rant_about_punctuation_in_kernel_comments/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/11/linus_torvalds_in_sw... > Linus Torvalds releases Linux 4.6: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/16/linus_torvalds_releases_linux_46/* http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/16/linus_torvalds_relea... An excerpt: > Torvalds says "I'll start doing merge window pull requests for 4.7 starting tomorrow." Expect that release about two months from now, unless Linus takes a summer break or things go awry in some unpredicable fashion.* > Linus Torvalds wavers, pauses - then gives the world Linux 4.5: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/15/linux_4_5_released/* http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/15/linux_4_5_released/* An excerpt: > Linux often caters to esoteric tastes, which is why this time around Torvalds has seen fit to include code that does a better job handling PS/2 mice. For both of you still using those. * > Latin-quoting Linus Torvalds plays God by not abusing mortals: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/06/latinquoting_linus_torvalds_plays_god_by_inoti_abusing_mortals/* http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/06/latinquoting_linus_t... > Linus Torvalds warns he's in no mood to be polite as Linux 4.2 drags: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/03/linus_torvalds_in_no_mood_to_be_polite_as_work_on_linux_42_drags/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/03/linus_torvalds_in_no... * > Linux infosec outfit does a Torvalds, rageblocks innocent vuln spotter: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/27/linux_security_bug_report_row/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/27/linux_security_bug_r... This one is not really about Linus. It sports the same "Linus making the middle finger" image anyway. > Linus Torvalds fires off angry 'compiler-masturbation' rant: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/01/linus_torvalds_fires_off_angry_compilermasturbation_rant/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/01/linus_torvalds_fires... All those articles come from the same author: Simon Sharwood: http://www.theregister.co.uk/Author/2488 http://www.theregister.co.uk/Author/2488 I'm not commenting on the content or the substance of the linked article, just pointing out an interesting pattern displayed by the author.
ovt 10y ago
I feel it's a good development that we no longer hear about Linus so much--unlike in the 90s, when it seemed he was taken excessively seriously.
danso 10y ago
As in other controversial Linus-rants, I feel that, sure, some of his phrasing is gratuitous, but I prefer his brutal and thorough critiques to the way that some maintainers shut down issues with a smug and glib one-line statement. I didn't read the entire thread, just the single message in question, so I don't know if there's been a buildup (I mean, besides the many years Linus has spent as a developer) to this blowup. And I don't follow the mailing list so I don't know if Linus is half-jokingly playing into his pigeonhole of a reputation. But I do respect that a developer who has created incalculable good for the world and is established enough to quit and live happily on a tropical island still gives a shit enough about things like readability to be irate about it, and to take the time to type out a "sweary" essay of examples and elaboration. Someone has to care, and I'm glad it's someone of his stature. I know I'm making an appeal to authority, but I tolerate a sweary rant from someone like Linus differently than from a middle manager who wants to be cock of the walk in office politics.
Aaronik 10y ago
Lol I agree with Thorvalds' commenting style.
kstenerud 10y ago
Ah yes, classic Torvalds. He's one of the old guard from back in the days of "if it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand", back when neckbeards took out their years of being tormented by the jocks in school on anyone new who dares to set foot in their digital playground. I'd never work with Torvalds. I dislike bullies.
- pritambaral 10y ago
  > I dislike bullies Torvalds doesn't display any bully-like behaviour here. One has to be careful when labelling.
- Oletros 10y ago
  > "if it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand" Isn't Torvalds doing just the contrary in this case? He advocates for easy to read and understand comments
stuxnet79 10y ago
Reminds me a lot of that Silicon Valley episode where Richard broke up with his girl-friend because he preferred tabs whereas she preferred spaces.
- dozzie 10y ago
  Smart girl. She dodged a bullet.
  - ivraatiems 10y ago
    Actually, in the episode she was just as petty and smallminded as Richard wa-- Oh. You mean because of the thing. Right.
- lokedhs 10y ago
  I've never watched SV, but if he prefers tabs I'm surprised his girlfriend didn't break up with him first.
  - stuxnet79 10y ago
    In the show Richard is billed as a compression guru - his startup is trying to market an impressive compression algorithm he developed. His justification for tabs over spaces in the show was they require less bytes. But the point of the scene was to highlight the sometimes pointless quibbling that programmers can engage in, and how far it can go. Is Linus Torvalds rant pointless? I'm not informed enough to risk an opinion but I doubt the personal attacks, belittling and swearing are helping his case.
ivraatiems 10y ago
Every time Linus Torvalds' rude behavior comes up on HN, people leap to his defense. Then, people leap on top of those people for leaping to his defense. Personally, I fall strongly in the "he's rude and annoying and should stop it" camp. For the sake of productive discussion, I'd like to list a few things that are not valid defenses to his dickishness: 1) "He's a visionary developer." Yes, but plenty of visionaries are also friendly and polite. You can have a strong opinion and argue it strongly without descending into namecalling. 2) "He's built something millions use." That we live a world where having success allows you to be a jerk is a bug, not a feature. Respect for the Linux kernel would be respecting the people who work on it, which Linus rarely does. 3) "Kernel developers are used to this kind of behavior and can take it." That doesn't meant they ought to have to. And plenty of kernel developers have left. It feels like there's a big to-do about somebody retiring from the kernel once every couple of years, at least. 4) "It's his project and he can do what he wants with it." Maybe. It's largely the world's project now. But even if it were totally his, having the right to do something doesn't mean one ought to do something. 5) "You couldn't do it, so shut up and let Linus do his job." It's not, and has never been, about me. I hope that by listing these, I can short-circuit some of the repetitive arguments on this topic... or at least confine them to one comment chain.
- pdkl95 10y ago
  > I fall strongly in the "he's rude and annoying That's your opinion, which is fine, but remember that other people may have their own opinions. > and should stop it" I think he's handled many situations very well. Mr. Torvalds only uses this type of language after a problem has persisted for a long time, usually after repeated attempts (either directly or through his "lieutenants") to fix the problem. If the polite nudges don't work, stronger language can be necessary. There is a difference between careful use of strong language to make a specific point, and a personal attack or continuing grudge. Mr. Torvalds has always had strict standards for code formatting because mix-styles eventually becomes a mess that is harder to maintain. Attacking the coding style is good management. It's cherry-picking to pull the one swear word he used. > rude behavior Sometimes strong language caries meaning. Cultural differences can make this a bit of a gray area, but in this case, a minor use of strong language was very effective at conveying just how bad those comment styles are for the long-term maintenance of the kernel. It's slightly too long to include here directly, but please read this short work (poem? blank verse?), "How a plan becomes policy". http://ogun.stanford.edu/~bnayfeh/plan.html http://ogun.stanford.edu/~bnayfeh/plan.html I'm not trying to justify arbitrary use of swearing or other rudeness. I'm suggesting that strong language is data which is foolish to ignore if it's used carefully. > [items 1-5] Most of these seem to be projection, not actual arguments that are used in the defense of the language.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
pgrbuc 10y ago
Here's a link to the full email: https://lkml.org/lkml/2016/7/8/625 https://lkml.org/lkml/2016/7/8/625

31 points by sebhack 10y ago

jswny 10y ago

I really don't think this is an important topic and the article is of little substance with a fairly clickbaity image to top it all off. However, I do agree that the comment styles mentioned in the article that Torvalds supposedly dislikes are ugly. Code should look appealing when possible for sure, no reason to use those unbalanced comment styles.

luso_brazilian 10y ago
To add to that the author really seems to have an axe to grind with Linus. The suggested read on "More from The Register" links, all accompanied by the same "Linux middle finger" or "Linux Nuttella" images: > Linus Torvalds in sweary rant about punctuation in kernel comments: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/11/linus_torvalds_in_sweary_rant_about_punctuation_in_kernel_comments/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/11/linus_torvalds_in_sw... > Linus Torvalds releases Linux 4.6: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/16/linus_torvalds_releases_linux_46/* http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/16/linus_torvalds_relea... An excerpt: > Torvalds says "I'll start doing merge window pull requests for 4.7 starting tomorrow." Expect that release about two months from now, unless Linus takes a summer break or things go awry in some unpredicable fashion.* > Linus Torvalds wavers, pauses - then gives the world Linux 4.5: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/15/linux_4_5_released/* http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/15/linux_4_5_released/* An excerpt: > Linux often caters to esoteric tastes, which is why this time around Torvalds has seen fit to include code that does a better job handling PS/2 mice. For both of you still using those. * > Latin-quoting Linus Torvalds plays God by not abusing mortals: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/06/latinquoting_linus_torvalds_plays_god_by_inoti_abusing_mortals/* http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/06/latinquoting_linus_t... > Linus Torvalds warns he's in no mood to be polite as Linux 4.2 drags: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/03/linus_torvalds_in_no_mood_to_be_polite_as_work_on_linux_42_drags/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/03/linus_torvalds_in_no... * > Linux infosec outfit does a Torvalds, rageblocks innocent vuln spotter: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/27/linux_security_bug_report_row/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/27/linux_security_bug_r... This one is not really about Linus. It sports the same "Linus making the middle finger" image anyway. > Linus Torvalds fires off angry 'compiler-masturbation' rant: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/01/linus_torvalds_fires_off_angry_compilermasturbation_rant/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/01/linus_torvalds_fires... All those articles come from the same author: Simon Sharwood: http://www.theregister.co.uk/Author/2488 http://www.theregister.co.uk/Author/2488 I'm not commenting on the content or the substance of the linked article, just pointing out an interesting pattern displayed by the author.

ovt 10y ago

I feel it's a good development that we no longer hear about Linus so much--unlike in the 90s, when it seemed he was taken excessively seriously.

danso 10y ago

As in other controversial Linus-rants, I feel that, sure, some of his phrasing is gratuitous, but I prefer his brutal and thorough critiques to the way that some maintainers shut down issues with a smug and glib one-line statement. I didn't read the entire thread, just the single message in question, so I don't know if there's been a buildup (I mean, besides the many years Linus has spent as a developer) to this blowup. And I don't follow the mailing list so I don't know if Linus is half-jokingly playing into his pigeonhole of a reputation. But I do respect that a developer who has created incalculable good for the world and is established enough to quit and live happily on a tropical island still gives a shit enough about things like readability to be irate about it, and to take the time to type out a "sweary" essay of examples and elaboration. Someone has to care, and I'm glad it's someone of his stature. I know I'm making an appeal to authority, but I tolerate a sweary rant from someone like Linus differently than from a middle manager who wants to be cock of the walk in office politics.

Aaronik 10y ago

Lol I agree with Thorvalds' commenting style.

kstenerud 10y ago

Ah yes, classic Torvalds. He's one of the old guard from back in the days of "if it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand", back when neckbeards took out their years of being tormented by the jocks in school on anyone new who dares to set foot in their digital playground. I'd never work with Torvalds. I dislike bullies.

pritambaral 10y ago
> I dislike bullies Torvalds doesn't display any bully-like behaviour here. One has to be careful when labelling.
Oletros 10y ago
> "if it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand" Isn't Torvalds doing just the contrary in this case? He advocates for easy to read and understand comments

stuxnet79 10y ago

Reminds me a lot of that Silicon Valley episode where Richard broke up with his girl-friend because he preferred tabs whereas she preferred spaces.

dozzie 10y ago
Smart girl. She dodged a bullet.
- ivraatiems 10y ago
  Actually, in the episode she was just as petty and smallminded as Richard wa-- Oh. You mean because of the thing. Right.
lokedhs 10y ago
I've never watched SV, but if he prefers tabs I'm surprised his girlfriend didn't break up with him first.
- stuxnet79 10y ago
  In the show Richard is billed as a compression guru - his startup is trying to market an impressive compression algorithm he developed. His justification for tabs over spaces in the show was they require less bytes. But the point of the scene was to highlight the sometimes pointless quibbling that programmers can engage in, and how far it can go. Is Linus Torvalds rant pointless? I'm not informed enough to risk an opinion but I doubt the personal attacks, belittling and swearing are helping his case.

ivraatiems 10y ago

Every time Linus Torvalds' rude behavior comes up on HN, people leap to his defense. Then, people leap on top of those people for leaping to his defense. Personally, I fall strongly in the "he's rude and annoying and should stop it" camp. For the sake of productive discussion, I'd like to list a few things that are not valid defenses to his dickishness: 1) "He's a visionary developer." Yes, but plenty of visionaries are also friendly and polite. You can have a strong opinion and argue it strongly without descending into namecalling. 2) "He's built something millions use." That we live a world where having success allows you to be a jerk is a bug, not a feature. Respect for the Linux kernel would be respecting the people who work on it, which Linus rarely does. 3) "Kernel developers are used to this kind of behavior and can take it." That doesn't meant they ought to have to. And plenty of kernel developers have left. It feels like there's a big to-do about somebody retiring from the kernel once every couple of years, at least. 4) "It's his project and he can do what he wants with it." Maybe. It's largely the world's project now. But even if it were totally his, having the right to do something doesn't mean one ought to do something. 5) "You couldn't do it, so shut up and let Linus do his job." It's not, and has never been, about me. I hope that by listing these, I can short-circuit some of the repetitive arguments on this topic... or at least confine them to one comment chain.

pdkl95 10y ago
> I fall strongly in the "he's rude and annoying That's your opinion, which is fine, but remember that other people may have their own opinions. > and should stop it" I think he's handled many situations very well. Mr. Torvalds only uses this type of language after a problem has persisted for a long time, usually after repeated attempts (either directly or through his "lieutenants") to fix the problem. If the polite nudges don't work, stronger language can be necessary. There is a difference between careful use of strong language to make a specific point, and a personal attack or continuing grudge. Mr. Torvalds has always had strict standards for code formatting because mix-styles eventually becomes a mess that is harder to maintain. Attacking the coding style is good management. It's cherry-picking to pull the one swear word he used. > rude behavior Sometimes strong language caries meaning. Cultural differences can make this a bit of a gray area, but in this case, a minor use of strong language was very effective at conveying just how bad those comment styles are for the long-term maintenance of the kernel. It's slightly too long to include here directly, but please read this short work (poem? blank verse?), "How a plan becomes policy". http://ogun.stanford.edu/~bnayfeh/plan.html http://ogun.stanford.edu/~bnayfeh/plan.html I'm not trying to justify arbitrary use of swearing or other rudeness. I'm suggesting that strong language is data which is foolish to ignore if it's used carefully. > [items 1-5] Most of these seem to be projection, not actual arguments that are used in the defense of the language.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

pgrbuc 10y ago

Here's a link to the full email: https://lkml.org/lkml/2016/7/8/625 https://lkml.org/lkml/2016/7/8/625