4 ms·

"And they may face discrimination based on race, class or other factors." In urban areas, where access to transportation and availability of jobs is better, th

"And they may face discrimination based on race, class or other factors." In urban areas, where access to transportation and availability of jobs is better, this is really the crux of the issue. Employers (often unfairly) view middle class kids as more reliable. So even if they think working class kids will work harder (another common view in my experience), they see the middle class teenagers as less of a risk.

dogma1138 10y ago
Isn't middle class also a working class? I was brought up as middle class, not especially wealthy would even classify it towards the lower end, but highly educated as both parents were academics. I worked every summer since I was 13, and 16ish to 18 also during the school year now and then (17/18 was fairly lucky early it was really early 2000's and I mastered PHP rather well so made actually decent money building websites when web2.0, CMS and dynamic content were still meaningful buzzwords).
- true_religion 10y ago
  Well no. The working class is the bottom end of the middle class (historically factory workers, currently teachers and clerking jobs). The upper end of the middle-class are people making 150k+ a year. The middle-end have jobs within the 80k to 100k range.
- junipergreen 10y ago
  In the academic, Marxist sense, yes. But I was using the term "working class" rather as a synonym for minimum wage, blue collar workers, or in this case teenagers whose parents have those jobs. The point really is that middle class kids (like you were) can get jobs (like you did), whereas poor kids often can't.
true_religion 10y ago
Middle class kids are unreliable because they don't "need" the work. They want it to buy things for themselves or to feel a sense of independence, but anything 'more important' that comes up will cut infront of work. If they need to go to school, or camp, or have a family event...they'll do that instead of work because work isn't a necessity. The poor on the otherhand will go to work over all else, and they'll never have their parents give them a choice between going to work next month or going on vacation in Hawaii.
- junipergreen 10y ago
  This is absolutely true. People, especially people in the position to be hiring others have some truly classist concepts of "values." Many think poor people are dishonest, likely to steal, lazy. Total rubbish.
  - cafard 10y ago
    No, it is not absolutely true. I came from a middle class family, but from the time I started working summer jobs, that was it for the family vacation. The employer got two weeks notice at the end of the summer--I didn't always get two weeks notice from an employer.
    - junipergreen 10y ago
      Yeah, meant the bit about poor teenagers being reliable, because they need the jobs. Didn't mean to agree with the sentiment that middle-class kids are unreliable. Most probably aren't. Though I myself once flaked on a job in college to spend the summer in the city my boyfriend lived in. So guess I'm anecdotal evidence they can be. I found another job in the other city, but likely wouldn't have given up a sure-thing to take that risk if I hadn't had a safety net.
      - true_religion 10y ago
        I'm not saying that middle-class children are flakey, but you have to consider how most low-paying employers treat their employees. They offer X hours per week, and constantly juggle the scheduling to suit themselves so workers don't neccesarily know when they will be called in. They do things like require long hours on one day (e.g. a 12 hour day), then cut short the hours on the next day to avoid the worker being classified as full-time or overtime pay. It's these kind of annoyances that a middle-class kid will just ignore. They have other obligations and can get away with leaving money on the table if necessary. They don't really care if they work 25 hours a week or 20 hours. To a poor worker though those 5 hours can make or break the budget, so they'll come work a 12 hour shift if the boss requires it instead of dropping the whole day and thus getting less hours per week.
biocomputation 10y ago
You're absolutely right about the dichotomy with respect to perception. In my original comment, I was going to post "perception is reality" because perception, default thinking, and other heuristics underpin so much of what constitutes discrimination. This is, of course, absolutely unfair, but most of us at least have a chance to shape how others perceive us. In the end, it's surprising how much the "little, superficial" things matter in that respect.

dogma1138 10y ago

Isn't middle class also a working class? I was brought up as middle class, not especially wealthy would even classify it towards the lower end, but highly educated as both parents were academics. I worked every summer since I was 13, and 16ish to 18 also during the school year now and then (17/18 was fairly lucky early it was really early 2000's and I mastered PHP rather well so made actually decent money building websites when web2.0, CMS and dynamic content were still meaningful buzzwords).

true_religion 10y ago
Well no. The working class is the bottom end of the middle class (historically factory workers, currently teachers and clerking jobs). The upper end of the middle-class are people making 150k+ a year. The middle-end have jobs within the 80k to 100k range.
junipergreen 10y ago
In the academic, Marxist sense, yes. But I was using the term "working class" rather as a synonym for minimum wage, blue collar workers, or in this case teenagers whose parents have those jobs. The point really is that middle class kids (like you were) can get jobs (like you did), whereas poor kids often can't.

true_religion 10y ago

Middle class kids are unreliable because they don't "need" the work. They want it to buy things for themselves or to feel a sense of independence, but anything 'more important' that comes up will cut infront of work. If they need to go to school, or camp, or have a family event...they'll do that instead of work because work isn't a necessity. The poor on the otherhand will go to work over all else, and they'll never have their parents give them a choice between going to work next month or going on vacation in Hawaii.

junipergreen 10y ago
This is absolutely true. People, especially people in the position to be hiring others have some truly classist concepts of "values." Many think poor people are dishonest, likely to steal, lazy. Total rubbish.
- cafard 10y ago
  No, it is not absolutely true. I came from a middle class family, but from the time I started working summer jobs, that was it for the family vacation. The employer got two weeks notice at the end of the summer--I didn't always get two weeks notice from an employer.
  - junipergreen 10y ago
    Yeah, meant the bit about poor teenagers being reliable, because they need the jobs. Didn't mean to agree with the sentiment that middle-class kids are unreliable. Most probably aren't. Though I myself once flaked on a job in college to spend the summer in the city my boyfriend lived in. So guess I'm anecdotal evidence they can be. I found another job in the other city, but likely wouldn't have given up a sure-thing to take that risk if I hadn't had a safety net.
    - true_religion 10y ago
      I'm not saying that middle-class children are flakey, but you have to consider how most low-paying employers treat their employees. They offer X hours per week, and constantly juggle the scheduling to suit themselves so workers don't neccesarily know when they will be called in. They do things like require long hours on one day (e.g. a 12 hour day), then cut short the hours on the next day to avoid the worker being classified as full-time or overtime pay. It's these kind of annoyances that a middle-class kid will just ignore. They have other obligations and can get away with leaving money on the table if necessary. They don't really care if they work 25 hours a week or 20 hours. To a poor worker though those 5 hours can make or break the budget, so they'll come work a 12 hour shift if the boss requires it instead of dropping the whole day and thus getting less hours per week.

biocomputation 10y ago

You're absolutely right about the dichotomy with respect to perception. In my original comment, I was going to post "perception is reality" because perception, default thinking, and other heuristics underpin so much of what constitutes discrimination. This is, of course, absolutely unfair, but most of us at least have a chance to shape how others perceive us. In the end, it's surprising how much the "little, superficial" things matter in that respect.