4 ms·

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/bye-the-beloved-country-why-almost-40-percent-of-israelis-are-thinking-of-emigrating.premium-1.484945 http://www.haaretz.com/

by Dr_tldr 10y ago

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/bye-the-beloved-country-why-almost-40-percent-of-israelis-are-thinking-of-emigrating.premium-1.484945 http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/bye-the-beloved-country-w... People who live in a country usually know it better than foreigners, so if almost 40% of them are contemplating emigration, there are some deep economic and social problems within that society. The last major immigration to Israel were eastern european jews leaving the Soviet Union in the late 1980s, and that was only because Israel put enormous political pressure on the US to not allow them to come to the states instead.

reissbaker 10y ago
> The last major immigration to Israel were eastern european jews leaving the Soviet Union in the late 1980s, and that was only because Israel put enormous political pressure on the US to not allow them to come to the states instead. I can't find a source for your claim the Israel put political pressure on the US to not allow Soviet Jews to immigrate. Your dates are also off by 1-2 decades, according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_Post-Soviet_aliyah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_Post-Soviet_aliyah Do you have a source for your claim?
- Dr_tldr 10y ago
  >The 1990s Post-Soviet aliyah began en masse in late 1980s when the government of Mikhail Gorbachev opened the borders of the USSR and allowed Jews to leave the country for Israel. Yes, the one you just linked and didn't read, at all. Literally the first sentence of the wikipedia article. The first sentence. From Wikipedia, the highest number of Jewish immigrants from The Soviet Union was in 1990. The first chart! Further discussion of the reason for Jewish organizations in America and Israel supporting limiting the amount of Soviet Jewish immigration to the US can be found here: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/belin/13469761.0016.001/--we-are-not-one-american-jews-israel-and-the-struggle-for?rgn=main;view=fulltext http://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/belin/13469761.0016.001/--we-are... I can't imagine you're a good developer or a good project contributor, since not only are you not capable of reading the documentation or doing a google search, you correct people who are right by using sources that say that you're wrong.
  - reissbaker 10y ago
    Sure, the highest spike was in 1990 — which is, you'll notice, not actually in the 80s — but nonetheless the article is quite clear that there was a high volume of Jewish immigration to Israel from the former Soviet Union throughout the 1990s and tapering off toward the end and through the early 2000s. There were 50k immigrants in the year 2000, for example, in the chart you're referencing. Saying that the "the last major immigration to Israel were eastern european jews leaving the Soviet Union in the late 1980s" (sic) is off by a decade even if you only count the '90s as part of the post-Soviet aliyah, and more than a decade if you count the early 2000s — Wikipedia considers the entire immigration wave to be from roughly 1989 to 2006, as mentioned in the second sentence of the post. Your other ad hominem comments seem pretty absurd.
    - Dr_tldr 10y ago
      Are you a non-native speaker of english at a lower-intermediate level? Because most conversational speakers of english would be able to successfully understand that it was implied as an ongoing process, while most lower-intermediate speakers tend to focus on grammar rules mechanically while having limited comprehension of everyday usage. Ie, most of the people who left in 1990 had already begun their applications and prepared to emigrate in 1989 or even earlier, unless you believe that the crumbling soviet bureaucracy moved at lighting speed and that it was easy for jews in central Asia to travel thousands of miles and spend potentially weeks applying for an exit visa in Moscow. Citing wikipedia as a primary source is something that wikipedia explicitly discourages, in part because so many articles are constantly being degraded in quality by extremist political partisans: scientologists, objectivists, zionists, stalinists, neo-nazis, etc. Clearly I have a grasp of the facts of the matter, so why are you splitting hairs if not to distract from the other things I said that you have no response to. The link I posted (of which you have said nothing, nor have you attempted a defense of why the Israeli government shut down a Finnish transit point that allowed soviet Jews to choose between the US and Israel) puts the period between 1989 and 1993. Furthermore, it provides exhaustive and nuanced evidence that the Israeli state was strongly opposed to allowing soviet jews freedom of choice. Ironically, the Israeli political mainstream is quite similar to the Soviet Union itself, in both its curtailing of human freedom, crude propaganda lies, and ugly ethno-nationalism. It is pretty absurd that you would have this evidence but be in such a strong state of dissonance that you're not willing to contest or process them, you're only trying to block them out. That sounds to me like a developer who ignores technical debt, isn't capable of learning new ways of thinking or disagreeing rationally, and insists on endless bikeshedding of irrelevant minutia instead of dealing with actual facts. I've known several great expat Israeli developers, and more than one of them left Israel precisely because they found that engineers and politicians with attitudes like the one I've described are destroying Israeli economic and social life.
amit_m 10y ago
There's a very simple reason for leaving: the cost of living is high and the typical salaries are low. But this isn't true for the Tech industry. An experienced software engineer makes around $100k/year, 5 times the median salary. (source: have been living in Israel my whole life, have friends who emigrated)
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  Yeah, most people's reason for leaving that I heard was money. If my wife hadn't been from Boston, I'd still be in Israel right now myself.
nal_ols 10y ago
Don't take whats written in 'Haaretz' for granted, its an highly controversial newspaper, extremely left-wingish, and very unpopular by many sectors in the Israeli society. Usually I would say their general opinion(especially in the international edition) is actually, against Israel, or to very least always emphasizing whats bad. To the article itself, even in the survey payed by them, only 2% said they are actually planning to leave. I wonder how that compares to other countries.

by Dr_tldr 10y ago

reissbaker 10y ago

> The last major immigration to Israel were eastern european jews leaving the Soviet Union in the late 1980s, and that was only because Israel put enormous political pressure on the US to not allow them to come to the states instead. I can't find a source for your claim the Israel put political pressure on the US to not allow Soviet Jews to immigrate. Your dates are also off by 1-2 decades, according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_Post-Soviet_aliyah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_Post-Soviet_aliyah Do you have a source for your claim?

Dr_tldr 10y ago
>The 1990s Post-Soviet aliyah began en masse in late 1980s when the government of Mikhail Gorbachev opened the borders of the USSR and allowed Jews to leave the country for Israel. Yes, the one you just linked and didn't read, at all. Literally the first sentence of the wikipedia article. The first sentence. From Wikipedia, the highest number of Jewish immigrants from The Soviet Union was in 1990. The first chart! Further discussion of the reason for Jewish organizations in America and Israel supporting limiting the amount of Soviet Jewish immigration to the US can be found here: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/belin/13469761.0016.001/--we-are-not-one-american-jews-israel-and-the-struggle-for?rgn=main;view=fulltext http://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/belin/13469761.0016.001/--we-are... I can't imagine you're a good developer or a good project contributor, since not only are you not capable of reading the documentation or doing a google search, you correct people who are right by using sources that say that you're wrong.
- reissbaker 10y ago
  Sure, the highest spike was in 1990 — which is, you'll notice, not actually in the 80s — but nonetheless the article is quite clear that there was a high volume of Jewish immigration to Israel from the former Soviet Union throughout the 1990s and tapering off toward the end and through the early 2000s. There were 50k immigrants in the year 2000, for example, in the chart you're referencing. Saying that the "the last major immigration to Israel were eastern european jews leaving the Soviet Union in the late 1980s" (sic) is off by a decade even if you only count the '90s as part of the post-Soviet aliyah, and more than a decade if you count the early 2000s — Wikipedia considers the entire immigration wave to be from roughly 1989 to 2006, as mentioned in the second sentence of the post. Your other ad hominem comments seem pretty absurd.
  - Dr_tldr 10y ago
    Are you a non-native speaker of english at a lower-intermediate level? Because most conversational speakers of english would be able to successfully understand that it was implied as an ongoing process, while most lower-intermediate speakers tend to focus on grammar rules mechanically while having limited comprehension of everyday usage. Ie, most of the people who left in 1990 had already begun their applications and prepared to emigrate in 1989 or even earlier, unless you believe that the crumbling soviet bureaucracy moved at lighting speed and that it was easy for jews in central Asia to travel thousands of miles and spend potentially weeks applying for an exit visa in Moscow. Citing wikipedia as a primary source is something that wikipedia explicitly discourages, in part because so many articles are constantly being degraded in quality by extremist political partisans: scientologists, objectivists, zionists, stalinists, neo-nazis, etc. Clearly I have a grasp of the facts of the matter, so why are you splitting hairs if not to distract from the other things I said that you have no response to. The link I posted (of which you have said nothing, nor have you attempted a defense of why the Israeli government shut down a Finnish transit point that allowed soviet Jews to choose between the US and Israel) puts the period between 1989 and 1993. Furthermore, it provides exhaustive and nuanced evidence that the Israeli state was strongly opposed to allowing soviet jews freedom of choice. Ironically, the Israeli political mainstream is quite similar to the Soviet Union itself, in both its curtailing of human freedom, crude propaganda lies, and ugly ethno-nationalism. It is pretty absurd that you would have this evidence but be in such a strong state of dissonance that you're not willing to contest or process them, you're only trying to block them out. That sounds to me like a developer who ignores technical debt, isn't capable of learning new ways of thinking or disagreeing rationally, and insists on endless bikeshedding of irrelevant minutia instead of dealing with actual facts. I've known several great expat Israeli developers, and more than one of them left Israel precisely because they found that engineers and politicians with attitudes like the one I've described are destroying Israeli economic and social life.

amit_m 10y ago

There's a very simple reason for leaving: the cost of living is high and the typical salaries are low. But this isn't true for the Tech industry. An experienced software engineer makes around $100k/year, 5 times the median salary. (source: have been living in Israel my whole life, have friends who emigrated)

eli_gottlieb 10y ago
Yeah, most people's reason for leaving that I heard was money. If my wife hadn't been from Boston, I'd still be in Israel right now myself.

nal_ols 10y ago

Don't take whats written in 'Haaretz' for granted, its an highly controversial newspaper, extremely left-wingish, and very unpopular by many sectors in the Israeli society. Usually I would say their general opinion(especially in the international edition) is actually, against Israel, or to very least always emphasizing whats bad. To the article itself, even in the survey payed by them, only 2% said they are actually planning to leave. I wonder how that compares to other countries.