4 ms·

I don't know if it's the only solution, but it would definitely help if there was adequate, well-respected and well-promoted free education. Unfortunately, pai

by prawn 10y ago

I don't know if it's the only solution, but it would definitely help if there was adequate, well-respected and well-promoted free education. Unfortunately, paid education will inevitably work aggressively to maintain their place in the system. The biggest problem I think is not just the availability but the motivation for people to see it through. There are great options available now for people willing to teach themselves, do online courses (free or cheap) and most don't bother.

pm90 10y ago
The problem with education, and online education specially, is the disconnect between the effort required for learning and the rewards. The latter often are realized once a sufficient amount of skill has been developed, which takes quite some patience to get to. If employers were to somehow collaborate with online course providers to create some kind of pipeline from unskilled-> skilled workers, that would be really amazing. I honestly wonder why more companies don't do that.
- erichocean 10y ago
  > I honestly wonder why more companies don't do that. Easy: generic education applies to any potential employer, not just the original sponsor, and there's no legal way to force a person, once educated, to work for you. (I'm not arguing there should be, either.) Put another way, you'd be training your competitor's employees if you were to do that. No rational actor wants (or can afford) to do that.
  - lj3 10y ago
    Would they be able to put a clause in the employment contract to trade X number of years for $X amount of education? I know the US government offers college scholarships that have similar terms, but I don't know if private industry would be able to enforce something like that.
    - erichocean 10y ago
      To the best of my knowledge, what you're describing is called a "debt slave", and it's illegal in the United States. Here's Wikipedia on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage
      - Thimothy 10y ago
        Don't be silly, it's a common practice in some industries for a company to pay some expensive course in exchange for X (usually 2) years of work (paid, very well). You can leave whenever you want, you just have to pay back the course. I had a friend working for Airbus who just did that, the company he moved to offered to pay him back the cost of the bailing out. Though all the times I have seen this happening was for very specialised and well paid work, when the workers have quite a lot of leverage. It's not hard to imagine this becoming really bad if the worker does not have any leverage.
        erichocean 10y ago
        > You can leave whenever you want, you just have to pay back the course. That's not the definition of a debt slave, because you're not paying back with work, you're paying back with money. In that scenario, the business is just a loan provider. Obviously, anyone can loan anyone else money for whatever reason.
- prawn 10y ago
  I think your first paragraph especially is great. Expands on what I meant. Perhaps industries rather than employers though? If there was a stronger connection between a point achieved in the pathway and the capabilities of the student? Obviously many students do placements and internships, but perhaps a great emphasis on that from the very beginning?
  - Godel_unicode 10y ago
    Those students are frequently paying their own training costs (tuition at university). Much less risk for the organization; let them take on debt, internship when they're close to the end, if the intern is really solid offer them a job (possibly with reimbursement)
    - prawn 10y ago
      Not disagreeing, just raising a related point. Once upon a time, children were contributing as workers early in life (on the farm, etc). Then in their teenage years. Now, many are still at home in their early- and mid-twenties pushing on after 12+ years of primary and secondary schooling to university and post-graduate qualifications. I think working earlier has a few advantages such as being able to cover own costs (reducing the burden on parents), getting practical experience sooner, working out whether you're even on the right path earlier, etc.
- Godel_unicode 10y ago
  The acquisition cost of an already skilled person (can start being productive quickly/immediately) is lower than the cost of training one up to be skilled. Add in the dice-roll of whether they're any good after the training, and you get the current market.

by prawn 10y ago

pm90 10y ago

The problem with education, and online education specially, is the disconnect between the effort required for learning and the rewards. The latter often are realized once a sufficient amount of skill has been developed, which takes quite some patience to get to. If employers were to somehow collaborate with online course providers to create some kind of pipeline from unskilled-> skilled workers, that would be really amazing. I honestly wonder why more companies don't do that.

erichocean 10y ago
> I honestly wonder why more companies don't do that. Easy: generic education applies to any potential employer, not just the original sponsor, and there's no legal way to force a person, once educated, to work for you. (I'm not arguing there should be, either.) Put another way, you'd be training your competitor's employees if you were to do that. No rational actor wants (or can afford) to do that.
- lj3 10y ago
  Would they be able to put a clause in the employment contract to trade X number of years for $X amount of education? I know the US government offers college scholarships that have similar terms, but I don't know if private industry would be able to enforce something like that.
  - erichocean 10y ago
    To the best of my knowledge, what you're describing is called a "debt slave", and it's illegal in the United States. Here's Wikipedia on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage
    - Thimothy 10y ago
      Don't be silly, it's a common practice in some industries for a company to pay some expensive course in exchange for X (usually 2) years of work (paid, very well). You can leave whenever you want, you just have to pay back the course. I had a friend working for Airbus who just did that, the company he moved to offered to pay him back the cost of the bailing out. Though all the times I have seen this happening was for very specialised and well paid work, when the workers have quite a lot of leverage. It's not hard to imagine this becoming really bad if the worker does not have any leverage.
      - erichocean 10y ago
        > You can leave whenever you want, you just have to pay back the course. That's not the definition of a debt slave, because you're not paying back with work, you're paying back with money. In that scenario, the business is just a loan provider. Obviously, anyone can loan anyone else money for whatever reason.
prawn 10y ago
I think your first paragraph especially is great. Expands on what I meant. Perhaps industries rather than employers though? If there was a stronger connection between a point achieved in the pathway and the capabilities of the student? Obviously many students do placements and internships, but perhaps a great emphasis on that from the very beginning?
- Godel_unicode 10y ago
  Those students are frequently paying their own training costs (tuition at university). Much less risk for the organization; let them take on debt, internship when they're close to the end, if the intern is really solid offer them a job (possibly with reimbursement)
  - prawn 10y ago
    Not disagreeing, just raising a related point. Once upon a time, children were contributing as workers early in life (on the farm, etc). Then in their teenage years. Now, many are still at home in their early- and mid-twenties pushing on after 12+ years of primary and secondary schooling to university and post-graduate qualifications. I think working earlier has a few advantages such as being able to cover own costs (reducing the burden on parents), getting practical experience sooner, working out whether you're even on the right path earlier, etc.
Godel_unicode 10y ago
The acquisition cost of an already skilled person (can start being productive quickly/immediately) is lower than the cost of training one up to be skilled. Add in the dice-roll of whether they're any good after the training, and you get the current market.