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I guess to believe this you have to believe that all so-called liberals and leftists are actually just authoritarians who use the promise of "free shit", as the

I guess to believe this you have to believe that all so-called liberals and leftists are actually just authoritarians who use the promise of "free shit", as the saying goes, merely as a means to secure power for themselves rather than as a legitimate policy goal. Because otherwise, UBI is basically the end-game of the "liberal welfare state". At any rate, I don't see liberals and leftists taking a unanimous stand against UBI. Opinions are divided, almost as though they are each separate individuals with their own thoughts.

marcoperaza 10y ago
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on this. The "free shit" is a sales tactic but also a genuine belief that the best way to ensure prosperity for all is through a planned society.
- deciplex 10y ago
  "Planned society" is so vague as to be meaningless anyway. "Planned society" certainly can include UBI, though you appear to suppose it doesn't. It can mean basically anything where you have a government that enforces laws, really, including laissez-faire capitalism. For the sake of argument I guess you mean "planned economy" but you don't have to support that to support a welfare state, either. Sounds to me like you're strawmanning the hell out of liberals.
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    Fair enough. "Planned society" was indeed too broad here. I think "paternalistic state" is more accurate. I think that, almost by definition, if you support a traditional welfare state over a UBI, you want a paternalistic state. OR you think that industries like health care are best directly run by the state (because otherwise, a UBI would allow everyone to buy coverage in the private market, if they choose to). That's a planned economy there. And "the economy" is such an overwhelming portion of what we call a society, that a planned economy is effectively a planned society in my eyes.

marcoperaza 10y ago

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on this. The "free shit" is a sales tactic but also a genuine belief that the best way to ensure prosperity for all is through a planned society.

deciplex 10y ago
"Planned society" is so vague as to be meaningless anyway. "Planned society" certainly can include UBI, though you appear to suppose it doesn't. It can mean basically anything where you have a government that enforces laws, really, including laissez-faire capitalism. For the sake of argument I guess you mean "planned economy" but you don't have to support that to support a welfare state, either. Sounds to me like you're strawmanning the hell out of liberals.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  Fair enough. "Planned society" was indeed too broad here. I think "paternalistic state" is more accurate. I think that, almost by definition, if you support a traditional welfare state over a UBI, you want a paternalistic state. OR you think that industries like health care are best directly run by the state (because otherwise, a UBI would allow everyone to buy coverage in the private market, if they choose to). That's a planned economy there. And "the economy" is such an overwhelming portion of what we call a society, that a planned economy is effectively a planned society in my eyes.