4 ms·

This is pretty disgusting. The lack of accountability is especially troubling. For a long time, I believed that we're better off legalizing all drugs and makin

This is pretty disgusting. The lack of accountability is especially troubling. For a long time, I believed that we're better off legalizing all drugs and making them available to anyone who wants to buy them. But I've had a change of heart recently. People simply aren't in control of themselves when they're addicted to these substances. The crooked doctors, the pain clinics, and all the complicit organizations in the supply chain profit, while millions of people lose their human agency to a chemical that alters their mind and transforms them into irrational drug addicts. It is very difficult for them to recover, and very easy to relapse. It is a human tragedy of enormous proportions. It tears apart families, ruins childhoods, and creates poverty. And at its worst, it takes lives. We have to take care of our people.

lostgame 10y ago
Oh ok so the real thing to do is shove them in jail - that helps them recover and totally helps their families and stuff. :/
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  Putting addicts in jail is certainly not the answer. Harsh enforcement against drug users is one of the biggest failings of the War on Drugs. So is the ban on "soft" drugs like weed and hallucinogens, which don't have the same abuse potential. But the majority of people serving sentences for drug crimes are there for selling drugs. http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/lists/top-10-marijuana-myths-and-facts-20120822/myth-prisons-are-full-of-people-in-for-marijuana-possession-19691231 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/lists/top-10-marijuana-m... "About 40,000 inmates of state and federal prison have a current conviction involving marijuana, and about half of them are in for marijuana offenses alone; most of these were involved in distribution. Less than one percent are in for possession alone." Remember that distribution of weed, while it sounds relatively harmless, is very often controlled by violent gangs. It's like getting Al Capone for evading taxes. The best solution is to legalize weed and put it in the hands of legal businesses. Also: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/releasing-drug-offenders-wont-end-mass-incarceration/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/releasing-drug-offenders-... There he shows that releasing all prisoners who are in jail with drug offenses as the most serious charge would only reduce the prison population by about 14%. This is counting both distribution AND simple possession. Not insignificant, but not the headline figure of 50% that you often hear.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    How many of those distribution charges were automatic based on amount in possession?
  - bgribble 10y ago
    "Involved in distribution" can mean "possession with intent to distribute", which in some places is triggered by a quantity in possession. One person's "personal party stash" may be enough to cross this threshold. So without more details about the particular state laws, it's impossible to know who was really jailed for "possession alone" vs "distributing".
  - lostgame 10y ago
    >> The best solution is to legalize weed and put it in the hands of legal businesses. Because giant corporations are 'less evil' than the gangs. looks at virtually every major corporation's use of cheap, offshore labour, sometimes child labour At least the gangs are upfront about killing people.
    - marcoperaza 10y ago
      I can't help you if you really believe that. Move to small-town Mexico, the south side of Chicago, or rough parts of LA and maybe you'll wake up from your little political fantasy.
tosseraccount 10y ago
The majority of the population has used drugs illegaly. You're saying "we aren't in control of ourselves" ? Most folks can handle a joint or an oxy or an underage brewski. Abuse should be treated as a medical problem, not a criminal problem. We need to take the cops and lawyers and the prison industry out of fixing it. Implementing the drug laws in practice targets the poor and minorities.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  People illegally selling hard drugs should go to jail. As for the rest of the War on Drugs' imprisonment policy, I'll agree that it's counterproductive and harmful.
  - oxide 10y ago
    I respectfully disagree. People who sell drugs are by and large non-violent offenders. American prisons would have plenty more room to keep pedophiles in prison and off probation if the cells weren't packed wall to wall with non-violent drug offenders.
    - marcoperaza 10y ago
      Like that FiveThirtyEight piece I linked to points out, releasing everyone that's in prison for primarily drug crimes will only reduce the prison population by 14%. The headline figures of 50% that you hear includes anyone that has any drug charge as part of their conviction, even if it's not the most serious charge.
      - oxide 10y ago
        14% is a staggering, massive number. full stop. Not much of an argument IMO
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        14% is a sizable share, and, in any case, a large portion of those with drug and other charges, rather than just did charges, have all the charges stemming from drug-related activities or transactions, or otherwise connected to drug prohibition (similarly many with no drug charges, but only other charges); ending the war on drugs wouldn't just eliminate the imprisonment tied solely to dig charges.
topspin 10y ago
The key thing to remember when you allow your empathy to command your thinking is that your drug war didn't prevent this. Everything in this story is about illegal activity; all of this is already illegal, as is the importation, manufacture, distribution and abuse of a litany of other drugs that are also still imported, manufactured, distributed and abused by people that can't "control themselves." So all your drug war has accomplished is to compound the abuse problem with a horrible criminal underclass, a vast and militant law enforcement regime to contend with it and an insidious corruption of people and institutions throughout our society. Despite all of this real damage your drug war doesn't actually save people; millions have been killed through drug abuse and millions are addicted today despite your drug war and the huge amounts of treasure spent to wage it. Is it conceivably possible to conduct your drug war so vigorously that it actually stops the bulk of this criminal activity and actually saves people from abuse? Yes. It is possible. You're going to need a GULAG system and a near total elimination of your civil rights because you will need to inflict enough misery and suffering on a large enough fraction of the population to generate sufficient fear to make the rest comply. The trade of valuable, easily concealable products in a liberal market economy is impossible to stop without such measures, which is why your drug war will never work, no matter how badly you feel about the tragedy of abusers. So please, reassert your rational mind; your drug war is doing more harm than good.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  You make a very fair point. The drug war has been a total disaster. It's thrown much of Latin America into chaos, with their governments unable to contend with the sophistication and brutality of drug cartels that rake in billions from the most lucrative drug market in the world, the United States. It's also a massive source of revenue for the criminal gangs that plague our cities within our country. The laughable propaganda from the government has also totally undermined important anti-drug messages. The ridiculous claims about the dangers of weed, for example. The reefer madness stuff. The DEA's insistence on keeping weed Schedule I. It's actually given rise to an equally ridiculous myth: that weed is totally harmless. But more importantly, it's undermined the message against harder drugs. If the government is lying about weed and shrooms, then people will think they're lying about other drugs as well. If we don't win the cultural battle against drug use being acceptable, then all is lost. You're right that no amount of law enforcement can change that in a liberal democracy. But assuming that battle can be won, this is what I think needs to happen on the legal and military end: I say legalize weed and other drugs with lower abuse potential; this will immediately destroy the largest segment of the illegal drug market. For hard drugs, stop imprisoning people for possession. Withhold the first arrest for simple possession from the public record, so it doesn't show up on background checks and destroy people's ability to get a job. This will create the public support for what must come next: come down like an iron fist on the weakened organized crime groups that have lost their largest source of revenue. Exploit internal strife caused by dwindling revenues, turn some people into informants, and then put away the rest for a very long time. The second biggest drug market is cocaine. Almost all of it comes from Colombia. Once the current peace process falls through or fails to stick, the US needs to help Colombia finish off the FARC completely. Unconditional surrender should be the only acceptable outcome. A complete commitment to ending mass coca production in Colombia should then be a condition of their friendly standing with the United States.

lostgame 10y ago

Oh ok so the real thing to do is shove them in jail - that helps them recover and totally helps their families and stuff. :/

marcoperaza 10y ago
Putting addicts in jail is certainly not the answer. Harsh enforcement against drug users is one of the biggest failings of the War on Drugs. So is the ban on "soft" drugs like weed and hallucinogens, which don't have the same abuse potential. But the majority of people serving sentences for drug crimes are there for selling drugs. http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/lists/top-10-marijuana-myths-and-facts-20120822/myth-prisons-are-full-of-people-in-for-marijuana-possession-19691231 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/lists/top-10-marijuana-m... "About 40,000 inmates of state and federal prison have a current conviction involving marijuana, and about half of them are in for marijuana offenses alone; most of these were involved in distribution. Less than one percent are in for possession alone." Remember that distribution of weed, while it sounds relatively harmless, is very often controlled by violent gangs. It's like getting Al Capone for evading taxes. The best solution is to legalize weed and put it in the hands of legal businesses. Also: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/releasing-drug-offenders-wont-end-mass-incarceration/ http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/releasing-drug-offenders-... There he shows that releasing all prisoners who are in jail with drug offenses as the most serious charge would only reduce the prison population by about 14%. This is counting both distribution AND simple possession. Not insignificant, but not the headline figure of 50% that you often hear.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  How many of those distribution charges were automatic based on amount in possession?
- bgribble 10y ago
  "Involved in distribution" can mean "possession with intent to distribute", which in some places is triggered by a quantity in possession. One person's "personal party stash" may be enough to cross this threshold. So without more details about the particular state laws, it's impossible to know who was really jailed for "possession alone" vs "distributing".
- lostgame 10y ago
  >> The best solution is to legalize weed and put it in the hands of legal businesses. Because giant corporations are 'less evil' than the gangs. looks at virtually every major corporation's use of cheap, offshore labour, sometimes child labour At least the gangs are upfront about killing people.
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    I can't help you if you really believe that. Move to small-town Mexico, the south side of Chicago, or rough parts of LA and maybe you'll wake up from your little political fantasy.

tosseraccount 10y ago

The majority of the population has used drugs illegaly. You're saying "we aren't in control of ourselves" ? Most folks can handle a joint or an oxy or an underage brewski. Abuse should be treated as a medical problem, not a criminal problem. We need to take the cops and lawyers and the prison industry out of fixing it. Implementing the drug laws in practice targets the poor and minorities.

marcoperaza 10y ago
People illegally selling hard drugs should go to jail. As for the rest of the War on Drugs' imprisonment policy, I'll agree that it's counterproductive and harmful.
- oxide 10y ago
  I respectfully disagree. People who sell drugs are by and large non-violent offenders. American prisons would have plenty more room to keep pedophiles in prison and off probation if the cells weren't packed wall to wall with non-violent drug offenders.
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    Like that FiveThirtyEight piece I linked to points out, releasing everyone that's in prison for primarily drug crimes will only reduce the prison population by 14%. The headline figures of 50% that you hear includes anyone that has any drug charge as part of their conviction, even if it's not the most serious charge.
    - oxide 10y ago
      14% is a staggering, massive number. full stop. Not much of an argument IMO
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      14% is a sizable share, and, in any case, a large portion of those with drug and other charges, rather than just did charges, have all the charges stemming from drug-related activities or transactions, or otherwise connected to drug prohibition (similarly many with no drug charges, but only other charges); ending the war on drugs wouldn't just eliminate the imprisonment tied solely to dig charges.

topspin 10y ago

The key thing to remember when you allow your empathy to command your thinking is that your drug war didn't prevent this. Everything in this story is about illegal activity; all of this is already illegal, as is the importation, manufacture, distribution and abuse of a litany of other drugs that are also still imported, manufactured, distributed and abused by people that can't "control themselves." So all your drug war has accomplished is to compound the abuse problem with a horrible criminal underclass, a vast and militant law enforcement regime to contend with it and an insidious corruption of people and institutions throughout our society. Despite all of this real damage your drug war doesn't actually save people; millions have been killed through drug abuse and millions are addicted today despite your drug war and the huge amounts of treasure spent to wage it. Is it conceivably possible to conduct your drug war so vigorously that it actually stops the bulk of this criminal activity and actually saves people from abuse? Yes. It is possible. You're going to need a GULAG system and a near total elimination of your civil rights because you will need to inflict enough misery and suffering on a large enough fraction of the population to generate sufficient fear to make the rest comply. The trade of valuable, easily concealable products in a liberal market economy is impossible to stop without such measures, which is why your drug war will never work, no matter how badly you feel about the tragedy of abusers. So please, reassert your rational mind; your drug war is doing more harm than good.

marcoperaza 10y ago
You make a very fair point. The drug war has been a total disaster. It's thrown much of Latin America into chaos, with their governments unable to contend with the sophistication and brutality of drug cartels that rake in billions from the most lucrative drug market in the world, the United States. It's also a massive source of revenue for the criminal gangs that plague our cities within our country. The laughable propaganda from the government has also totally undermined important anti-drug messages. The ridiculous claims about the dangers of weed, for example. The reefer madness stuff. The DEA's insistence on keeping weed Schedule I. It's actually given rise to an equally ridiculous myth: that weed is totally harmless. But more importantly, it's undermined the message against harder drugs. If the government is lying about weed and shrooms, then people will think they're lying about other drugs as well. If we don't win the cultural battle against drug use being acceptable, then all is lost. You're right that no amount of law enforcement can change that in a liberal democracy. But assuming that battle can be won, this is what I think needs to happen on the legal and military end: I say legalize weed and other drugs with lower abuse potential; this will immediately destroy the largest segment of the illegal drug market. For hard drugs, stop imprisoning people for possession. Withhold the first arrest for simple possession from the public record, so it doesn't show up on background checks and destroy people's ability to get a job. This will create the public support for what must come next: come down like an iron fist on the weakened organized crime groups that have lost their largest source of revenue. Exploit internal strife caused by dwindling revenues, turn some people into informants, and then put away the rest for a very long time. The second biggest drug market is cocaine. Almost all of it comes from Colombia. Once the current peace process falls through or fails to stick, the US needs to help Colombia finish off the FARC completely. Unconditional surrender should be the only acceptable outcome. A complete commitment to ending mass coca production in Colombia should then be a condition of their friendly standing with the United States.