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What Jason C didn't mention was all the other people who'd been putting in 80 hour weeks that didn't make it. You think Google was the only one working long hou

What Jason C didn't mention was all the other people who'd been putting in 80 hour weeks that didn't make it. You think Google was the only one working long hours? Google had a better idea. They worked hard on their better idea, but it's the idea that won, not the hour count. The tech graveyard is full of overworked, tired, run-down, exhausted people who put in more hours than their bodies could handle. I run into people all the time who are putting in ridiculous hours and getting no where. Hours don't make it. Good choices, the right focus, and intelligent decisions over a long period of time make it. Jason C's point about practice is absolutely right though. But practice doesn't equal long hours. Practice equals practice. 3 hours of focused practice on the right thing is far better than 6 hours of practicing the wrong thing. Practice quantity isn't the secret, it's practice quality. Here's a related post I wrote on "Making money takes practice like playing the piano takes practice": http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1985-making-money-takes-practice-like-playing-the-piano-takes-practice http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1985-making-money-takes-pract...

axod 17y ago
But then I'd say "fire the workaholics" is still silly. Fire the unproductive workaholics. Sure, there are workaholics who don't get anywhere, but that's a minority. Maybe it's common in SV though :/ >> "I run into people all the time who are putting in ridiculous hours and getting no where." Were they not productive, or did their idea stink? A ton of the startups that get investment are just really bad ideas IMHO. Why didn't they recognize they weren't getting anywhere earlier, and make better decisions? Why didn't they change their idea, or the things they were focusing on? Building stuff takes hard work, and sometimes crazy hours. If you're not being productive, then stop wasting time, but if you are able to put in more hours than the competition to beat them, it's going to pay off. Be a productive workaholic. Google/Yahoo/Apple/etc just wouldn't have been built if people hadn't put in crazy hours. Same is true for most large companies. I would say that yes, Google had a good idea, but they would not have succeeded without crazy hours. You need both. But I also think Jasons point about "simple software" was valid. 37Signals is all about simple 'lite' software that solves the basic need, rather than taking on the massive hard problems, and that seems to be more why there's the 'do less' stance.
- jasonfried 17y ago
  "Sure, there are workaholics who don't get anywhere, but that's a minority." I don't agree that the majority of workaholics are successful. My experience has revealed that the majority are tired, frustrated, and stressed out. And those who work with them feel the effects too. Workaholism isn't a smartbomb, it's a dirty bomb - the fallout is often widespread. While everyone's definition of successful varies, burnout, frustration, and stress are easier to spot. Just ask the people around the sustained workaholics - they have the clear picture. And just like any addiction, it catches up with you and destroys you or those around you. Maybe not right now, and maybe not in short spurts, but sustained workaholism will do its damage. "But I also think Jasons point about "simple software" was valid. 37Signals is all about simple 'lite' software that solves the basic need, rather than taking on the massive hard problems, and that seems to be more why there's the 'do less' stance." It is true. We solve problems with simple solutions. That is a conscious decision. It's not because we can't solve hard problems, it's because 1. we believe most of the problems people have are simple problems, and 2. we're not interested in solving really hard problems. We'd rather solve simple problems really well, profit handsomely, and get a good nights sleep. Lastly, I don't believe there's more glory in solving hard problems than solving simple problems. The glory comes from solving real problems. Simple problems are just as real as hard problems.
  - jasonmcalacanis 17y ago
    I would post an insightful comment on this debate, but I think you summarized it perfectly. Workaholics can take it too far, and often do. Solving real problems--small or large--is virtuous. 37signals has an amazing approach, as do companies which are in dogfights with competitors and need to burn the midnight oil for a sustained period of time. different situations call for different strategies. This debate is long overdue and I'm glad we are all having it.
    - encoderer 17y ago
      That's the point, isn't it? You tried to make it in the interview but you didn't do it as successfully as you did right there. If you're in a dogfight with a company that's A) taking funding in exchange for a minority stake or B) willing to have a whatever-it-takes development cycle, and they're executing as smartly as you are, then you have no choice. If you want your product to succeed in the marketplace and you can't outsmart them, then you need to decide if you'll let them win just because they're using more horsepower. Good call there Jason. Because you don't always get the choice about the dogfight. Sometimes the fight finds you.
zedshaw 17y ago
That's interesting, because I remember David working like a dog on Rails both before and after it became popular while also working on your applications. Sounds workaholic to me, so why didn't you fire him?
- snom370 17y ago
  Nope, he had only 10 hours a week to build it, and he made the Rails framework so he would be able to speed up development and meet the deadline.
jayair 17y ago
The one thing that is constantly overlooked when it comes to the practice debate is the reason why they were working hard in the first place. It is rarely a case where two competing parties just put out x amount of hours on practice just for the sake of working hard. It is often the case that the person putting in long hours really love what they do and want to get better at it and hence they practice. The long hours is just an after thought. And the Google had the better idea argument makes very little sense. In hindsight of course their idea was brilliant but in the beginning they were the only ones that believed it and as a result worked hard for it. Lets find some people in the tech graveyard that felt they were working on a bad idea for 80 hours a week.
grinich 17y ago
The tech graveyard is full of overworked, tired, run-down, exhausted people who put in more hours than their bodies could handle. I run into people all the time who are putting in ridiculous hours and getting no where. Academia too.

axod 17y ago

But then I'd say "fire the workaholics" is still silly. Fire the unproductive workaholics. Sure, there are workaholics who don't get anywhere, but that's a minority. Maybe it's common in SV though :/ >> "I run into people all the time who are putting in ridiculous hours and getting no where." Were they not productive, or did their idea stink? A ton of the startups that get investment are just really bad ideas IMHO. Why didn't they recognize they weren't getting anywhere earlier, and make better decisions? Why didn't they change their idea, or the things they were focusing on? Building stuff takes hard work, and sometimes crazy hours. If you're not being productive, then stop wasting time, but if you are able to put in more hours than the competition to beat them, it's going to pay off. Be a productive workaholic. Google/Yahoo/Apple/etc just wouldn't have been built if people hadn't put in crazy hours. Same is true for most large companies. I would say that yes, Google had a good idea, but they would not have succeeded without crazy hours. You need both. But I also think Jasons point about "simple software" was valid. 37Signals is all about simple 'lite' software that solves the basic need, rather than taking on the massive hard problems, and that seems to be more why there's the 'do less' stance.

jasonfried 17y ago
"Sure, there are workaholics who don't get anywhere, but that's a minority." I don't agree that the majority of workaholics are successful. My experience has revealed that the majority are tired, frustrated, and stressed out. And those who work with them feel the effects too. Workaholism isn't a smartbomb, it's a dirty bomb - the fallout is often widespread. While everyone's definition of successful varies, burnout, frustration, and stress are easier to spot. Just ask the people around the sustained workaholics - they have the clear picture. And just like any addiction, it catches up with you and destroys you or those around you. Maybe not right now, and maybe not in short spurts, but sustained workaholism will do its damage. "But I also think Jasons point about "simple software" was valid. 37Signals is all about simple 'lite' software that solves the basic need, rather than taking on the massive hard problems, and that seems to be more why there's the 'do less' stance." It is true. We solve problems with simple solutions. That is a conscious decision. It's not because we can't solve hard problems, it's because 1. we believe most of the problems people have are simple problems, and 2. we're not interested in solving really hard problems. We'd rather solve simple problems really well, profit handsomely, and get a good nights sleep. Lastly, I don't believe there's more glory in solving hard problems than solving simple problems. The glory comes from solving real problems. Simple problems are just as real as hard problems.
- jasonmcalacanis 17y ago
  I would post an insightful comment on this debate, but I think you summarized it perfectly. Workaholics can take it too far, and often do. Solving real problems--small or large--is virtuous. 37signals has an amazing approach, as do companies which are in dogfights with competitors and need to burn the midnight oil for a sustained period of time. different situations call for different strategies. This debate is long overdue and I'm glad we are all having it.
  - encoderer 17y ago
    That's the point, isn't it? You tried to make it in the interview but you didn't do it as successfully as you did right there. If you're in a dogfight with a company that's A) taking funding in exchange for a minority stake or B) willing to have a whatever-it-takes development cycle, and they're executing as smartly as you are, then you have no choice. If you want your product to succeed in the marketplace and you can't outsmart them, then you need to decide if you'll let them win just because they're using more horsepower. Good call there Jason. Because you don't always get the choice about the dogfight. Sometimes the fight finds you.

zedshaw 17y ago

That's interesting, because I remember David working like a dog on Rails both before and after it became popular while also working on your applications. Sounds workaholic to me, so why didn't you fire him?

snom370 17y ago
Nope, he had only 10 hours a week to build it, and he made the Rails framework so he would be able to speed up development and meet the deadline.

jayair 17y ago

The one thing that is constantly overlooked when it comes to the practice debate is the reason why they were working hard in the first place. It is rarely a case where two competing parties just put out x amount of hours on practice just for the sake of working hard. It is often the case that the person putting in long hours really love what they do and want to get better at it and hence they practice. The long hours is just an after thought. And the Google had the better idea argument makes very little sense. In hindsight of course their idea was brilliant but in the beginning they were the only ones that believed it and as a result worked hard for it. Lets find some people in the tech graveyard that felt they were working on a bad idea for 80 hours a week.

grinich 17y ago

The tech graveyard is full of overworked, tired, run-down, exhausted people who put in more hours than their bodies could handle. I run into people all the time who are putting in ridiculous hours and getting no where. Academia too.