5 ms·

Emacs or vi: neither (Rob Pike)

26 points by _acme 10y ago

apathy 10y ago
I do love this little pearl: > In summary, it used to be that phones worked without you having to carry them around, but computers only worked if you did carry one around with you. The solution to this inconsistency was to break the way phones worked rather than fix the way computers work. He's right, it used to be that I could jump from machine to machine in a Unix environment and really the only thing I gave a shit about locally was my login shell. (I started out using Irix in an SGI/AFS environment, so our logins were essentially stateless; since openGL/XGL worked over the wire, I ran demos in DC on hardware in NY just because, and it was fucking great). I was sad when the majority of businesses and individuals seemingly decided that Microsoft's single-user desktop worldview was preferable to the Bold Old World of Unix and Plan9, which at that point, thanks to things like XGL and the Andrew File System, was quite multi-user and network-centric. This is why Pike's little pearl speaks to me. The cloud was a good idea 20 years ago, too. But only recently has it become the focus it should have been, and in a way that isn't quite as satisfying as MIT and CMU were attempting in the 90s. It really was a spectacular time. VR in research labs was, then, ahead of where it is, now, in most respects; certainly for things like molecular dynamics, we viewed it as a given that you'd want to wander around and poke the computed empirical force field for a molecule. I guess the up side is that it should be a lot faster and easier to catch up given the ubiquitous and powerful CPUs of today -- a Raspberry Pi is more powerful than my old SGI Indigo ever was. Just a matter of will and intent if society wants to recover and surpass the progress we made back when, and democratize it much further than it was.
- teh_klev 10y ago
  Everything you wrote was quite interesting up until the last sentence. Seriously do we really need this tired old OS flamebait crap here? Edit: @apathy gracefully edited out the offending last sentence so my comment above is no longer valid, however I'll leave here to provide context for the replies below.
  - apathy 10y ago
    Probably not. However, an OS is a tool, and your tools inevitably shape the way you view what you are working on. I'm going to revise my comment to tone it down, but the fact remains that network-native multiuser OSes (Unix, Plan9) encourage a very different view of the world than desktop-centric single-user OSes (Windows, in particular). That's not really something that needs further explanation if you've seriously used both, and the differences were much, much starker in the late 90s.
  - apathy 10y ago
    Fixed.
solipsism 10y ago
I personally think Rob's dream setup sounds horrible. I love having my own phone -- it was shitty having to look for a pay phone or buy a beer in a bar just to use the phone. And I don't use my phone or laptop for the local storage. If I lose either one I buy a new one and I reconnect to some accounts and I'm ready to go. That doesn't mean i don't appreciate having my own that I can carry around. Next time I'm hiking in the middle of the forest using Google Maps Offline and want to take a pic of something, I'll think of Rob rolling out his paper map trying to figure out how to get to the nearest camera rental place. Sorry, no storage for pics or maps on your unrolling pen screen.
- sbmassey 10y ago
  I think he's imagining a world where his map would somehow get an internet connection even way out in the boondocks.
  - apathy 10y ago
    Or, in the event that a connection was lacking, local state would be maintained only as long as required to allow usable work to get done. Google "coda" or "intermezzo" or "andrew file system". You might be surprised how many people worked on these things. I was, and I worked on some of them. Somewhat, but not wholly, tangential: when I read research papers, one of the first things I do is to look at how old their oldest references are. If the references are less than 50 years old, one of two things is usually true (sometimes 0, rarely 2, but usually 1): 1) The field is quite new (e.g. CRISPR-Cfp1 gene editing) 2) The authors don't have experienced mentors to guide them through the enormous literature, particularly in mathematics, physics, and chemistry. It is very rare to see Option 1 in practice. It is incredibly rare for someone of Pike's experience to fall into category 2. This interview is not a research paper; nonetheless, Pike did quite a bit of distributed systems research and is familiar with all of what I mentioned. Networks weren't always ubiquitous or reliable, but the fundamental idea of efficient compute resource sharing has always been attractive enough to view this as a complication rather than a deal-breaker.
  - solipsism 10y ago
    And have storage for working when the internet fails. And have a camera. And we just invented the tablet. Oh and a keyboard to type with. We shall call it "laptop".
white-flame 10y ago
Rob Pike has apparently never had an internet outage, or traveled outside modern civilization? Independence is a virtue. Even in the old phones-as-infrastructure case, there were many times when there was simply no working phone around, or available. Broken down on the road, being in an industrial area of town on the weekend, etc. If everything your life revolves around requires working and accessible infrastructure to access it, you're going to have times where you're left staring at a connection error screen, or no screen at all. And because the universe hates you, that will happen at the worst possible times. ;-)
- notacoward 10y ago
  He's at Google. Many people there seem to think of network connectivity the same way we think of clean water, electricity, and natural gas - things that are just always there, in whatever quantity you want. Ditto for storage and computational power, because for them all those things are like utilities. Never mind that people in many parts of the world can't even take those "old fashioned" utilities for granted. People who live in bubbles tend to lose touch with the outside world.
  - apathy 10y ago
    Thinks like the Andrew File System and Coda were actually developed to try and work around this, to provide resilience and allow one to have "soft" state in the presence of outages. The interest was not there, certainly not when most people were working on standalone Windows boxes or Macs, and didn't have any idea of the sort of power that was available in research labs via X and Ethernet. It's a shame, because not only did research groups think about these issues, 20 solid years ago, but also several strong contenders for solutions were implemented. Society did not see the value in supporting further work on the projects and so the researchers moved on. Pike is not an idiot. He is a pragmatist.
    - notacoward 10y ago
      How is it "pragmatic" to assume infinite connectivity instead of working to solve the problems when that assumption fails? That word does not mean what you want it to mean. I've worked on those problems for a couple of decades too. I also bemoan the relative lack of attention given to them. That's exactly why I find his attitude so disappointing.
notacoward 10y ago
I actually sort of agree with his idea that our portable devices should be stateless, but the way he puts it comes off way too much like "storage is magic that someone else should deal with" for me. Scalable storage with a usable interface (i.e. not an HTTP-based eventually-consistent object store) is hard enough even in a LAN environment. Making it happen in a WAN environment, which is what he's asking for, involves some very hard tradeoffs and engineering problems equivalent to anything you might do with the data once you get it. It's very disappointing to see what amounts to "other people's problem" from someone of his stature.
- apathy 10y ago
  That's a bit silly. His perspective is that of someone who watched tractable solutions to the cached-state and resync/reconciliation problems be implemented and then marginalized, since no one at the time saw the point. Now, 20-30 years later, it's starting to dawn on people, and the response is essentially a kludge. I'm disappointed, and I was never at Bell Labs. I imagine Pike is being diplomatic, to be honest. Research is incredibly frustrating when it depends so much on fashion.
- hollerith 10y ago
  Pike has at least 15 years of experience using stateless client devices on a large LAN (at Bell Labs) and being one of the leaders of a team providing the infrastructure (Plan 9) to make those devices usable.
kim0 10y ago
If I were implementing such setup today, would AFS still be my best option?

26 points by _acme 10y ago

I do love this little pearl: > In summary, it used to be that phones worked without you having to carry them around, but computers only worked if you did carry one around with you. The solution to this inconsistency was to break the way phones worked rather than fix the way computers work. He's right, it used to be that I could jump from machine to machine in a Unix environment and really the only thing I gave a shit about locally was my login shell. (I started out using Irix in an SGI/AFS environment, so our logins were essentially stateless; since openGL/XGL worked over the wire, I ran demos in DC on hardware in NY just because, and it was fucking great). I was sad when the majority of businesses and individuals seemingly decided that Microsoft's single-user desktop worldview was preferable to the Bold Old World of Unix and Plan9, which at that point, thanks to things like XGL and the Andrew File System, was quite multi-user and network-centric. This is why Pike's little pearl speaks to me. The cloud was a good idea 20 years ago, too. But only recently has it become the focus it should have been, and in a way that isn't quite as satisfying as MIT and CMU were attempting in the 90s. It really was a spectacular time. VR in research labs was, then, ahead of where it is, now, in most respects; certainly for things like molecular dynamics, we viewed it as a given that you'd want to wander around and poke the computed empirical force field for a molecule. I guess the up side is that it should be a lot faster and easier to catch up given the ubiquitous and powerful CPUs of today -- a Raspberry Pi is more powerful than my old SGI Indigo ever was. Just a matter of will and intent if society wants to recover and surpass the progress we made back when, and democratize it much further than it was.

teh_klev 10y ago
Everything you wrote was quite interesting up until the last sentence. Seriously do we really need this tired old OS flamebait crap here? Edit: @apathy gracefully edited out the offending last sentence so my comment above is no longer valid, however I'll leave here to provide context for the replies below.
- apathy 10y ago
  Probably not. However, an OS is a tool, and your tools inevitably shape the way you view what you are working on. I'm going to revise my comment to tone it down, but the fact remains that network-native multiuser OSes (Unix, Plan9) encourage a very different view of the world than desktop-centric single-user OSes (Windows, in particular). That's not really something that needs further explanation if you've seriously used both, and the differences were much, much starker in the late 90s.
- apathy 10y ago
  Fixed.

solipsism 10y ago

I personally think Rob's dream setup sounds horrible. I love having my own phone -- it was shitty having to look for a pay phone or buy a beer in a bar just to use the phone. And I don't use my phone or laptop for the local storage. If I lose either one I buy a new one and I reconnect to some accounts and I'm ready to go. That doesn't mean i don't appreciate having my own that I can carry around. Next time I'm hiking in the middle of the forest using Google Maps Offline and want to take a pic of something, I'll think of Rob rolling out his paper map trying to figure out how to get to the nearest camera rental place. Sorry, no storage for pics or maps on your unrolling pen screen.

sbmassey 10y ago
I think he's imagining a world where his map would somehow get an internet connection even way out in the boondocks.
- apathy 10y ago
  Or, in the event that a connection was lacking, local state would be maintained only as long as required to allow usable work to get done. Google "coda" or "intermezzo" or "andrew file system". You might be surprised how many people worked on these things. I was, and I worked on some of them. Somewhat, but not wholly, tangential: when I read research papers, one of the first things I do is to look at how old their oldest references are. If the references are less than 50 years old, one of two things is usually true (sometimes 0, rarely 2, but usually 1): 1) The field is quite new (e.g. CRISPR-Cfp1 gene editing) 2) The authors don't have experienced mentors to guide them through the enormous literature, particularly in mathematics, physics, and chemistry. It is very rare to see Option 1 in practice. It is incredibly rare for someone of Pike's experience to fall into category 2. This interview is not a research paper; nonetheless, Pike did quite a bit of distributed systems research and is familiar with all of what I mentioned. Networks weren't always ubiquitous or reliable, but the fundamental idea of efficient compute resource sharing has always been attractive enough to view this as a complication rather than a deal-breaker.
- solipsism 10y ago
  And have storage for working when the internet fails. And have a camera. And we just invented the tablet. Oh and a keyboard to type with. We shall call it "laptop".

white-flame 10y ago

Rob Pike has apparently never had an internet outage, or traveled outside modern civilization? Independence is a virtue. Even in the old phones-as-infrastructure case, there were many times when there was simply no working phone around, or available. Broken down on the road, being in an industrial area of town on the weekend, etc. If everything your life revolves around requires working and accessible infrastructure to access it, you're going to have times where you're left staring at a connection error screen, or no screen at all. And because the universe hates you, that will happen at the worst possible times. ;-)

notacoward 10y ago
He's at Google. Many people there seem to think of network connectivity the same way we think of clean water, electricity, and natural gas - things that are just always there, in whatever quantity you want. Ditto for storage and computational power, because for them all those things are like utilities. Never mind that people in many parts of the world can't even take those "old fashioned" utilities for granted. People who live in bubbles tend to lose touch with the outside world.
- apathy 10y ago
  Thinks like the Andrew File System and Coda were actually developed to try and work around this, to provide resilience and allow one to have "soft" state in the presence of outages. The interest was not there, certainly not when most people were working on standalone Windows boxes or Macs, and didn't have any idea of the sort of power that was available in research labs via X and Ethernet. It's a shame, because not only did research groups think about these issues, 20 solid years ago, but also several strong contenders for solutions were implemented. Society did not see the value in supporting further work on the projects and so the researchers moved on. Pike is not an idiot. He is a pragmatist.
  - notacoward 10y ago
    How is it "pragmatic" to assume infinite connectivity instead of working to solve the problems when that assumption fails? That word does not mean what you want it to mean. I've worked on those problems for a couple of decades too. I also bemoan the relative lack of attention given to them. That's exactly why I find his attitude so disappointing.

notacoward 10y ago

I actually sort of agree with his idea that our portable devices should be stateless, but the way he puts it comes off way too much like "storage is magic that someone else should deal with" for me. Scalable storage with a usable interface (i.e. not an HTTP-based eventually-consistent object store) is hard enough even in a LAN environment. Making it happen in a WAN environment, which is what he's asking for, involves some very hard tradeoffs and engineering problems equivalent to anything you might do with the data once you get it. It's very disappointing to see what amounts to "other people's problem" from someone of his stature.

apathy 10y ago
That's a bit silly. His perspective is that of someone who watched tractable solutions to the cached-state and resync/reconciliation problems be implemented and then marginalized, since no one at the time saw the point. Now, 20-30 years later, it's starting to dawn on people, and the response is essentially a kludge. I'm disappointed, and I was never at Bell Labs. I imagine Pike is being diplomatic, to be honest. Research is incredibly frustrating when it depends so much on fashion.
hollerith 10y ago
Pike has at least 15 years of experience using stateless client devices on a large LAN (at Bell Labs) and being one of the leaders of a team providing the infrastructure (Plan 9) to make those devices usable.

kim0 10y ago

If I were implementing such setup today, would AFS still be my best option?