6 ms·

In support of the Startup Visa

40 points by robg 17y ago

stse 17y ago
What I personally think is most exciting if this gets adopted, is not the bill itself but that US "hackers" see that they can influence politics. I've always been impressed that you, even early on, had organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Free Software Foundation and Creative Commons. But when you talk with Americans today in regards to things like the Pirate Party, you're mostly meet with overall disappointment over the US political system. So hopefully you now get the chance to find a different way to do something similar. Edit: If there isn't already one, someone should make a site for forming and joining interest groups.
- davidw 17y ago
  > US "hackers" see that they can influence politics. Err... the ones pushing this through are VC's, who are, pretty much by definition, a fairly well to do group. Closer to hackers than, say, Warren Buffet, probably, but still, not quite the same thing.
  - idlewords 17y ago
    I was going to say... watching the financial and power elite push through a pet bill is hardly that inspirational. Let's see hackers push through some real patent or copyright reform before we start passing around the cigars.
  - stse 17y ago
    That's awesome, getting downvoted and commented on for the one word I put inside quotation marks. I was referring to hackers as in Hacker News i.e. the "startup community". Also it's pretty much impossible to do anything political, especially in the US, without the help of influential people. I could tell you the details of how it's done over here, but something tells me you're not interested.
    - davidw 17y ago
      I didn't downvote you, and I commented because, well, I think you were to some degree wrong (but not wrong in a bad, downvotable way, just incorrect). The "startup community" is not what is driving this bill, it's the VC's.
dnsworks 17y ago
It will be fun to read this bill right before it goes through it's final vote, to see how many ridiculous additions have been tacked onto it..
- protomyth 17y ago
  Believe me, after a while depression sets in when you do that.
mseebach 17y ago
I'm not going to start a company in a country where my residence permit is conditional on factors beyond my control. That is exactly the kind of arbitrary constraints that makes me not want to spend my career in a big-co. If it's just me, maybe. But I could be bringing a spouse, and there might be a child in play - and at any given time, if my company fails, I could be given two weeks to leave the country permanently? If you want me, I'll come. I'll sign any number of pledges to never burden any welfare budgets, or be convicted of felonies. I'll pay my taxes, and accept it if I can't vote. But I won't compromise on permanent residence.
- sachinag 17y ago
  Canada finally fixed their laws to make it easy for US-based VCs to invest up there. Couple that with the pretty easy visa requirements for people with technical degrees, and we should see a flock of serious startup entrepreneurs moving to Vancouver and Toronto.
  - fnid2 17y ago
    The startup scene in Vancouver is horrible. I can't imagine any entrepreneurs moving there to start a company when Seattle is so close. The talent, the market, and the community are infinitely better in Seattle than Vancouver. Combine that with the exorbitant cost of living and it's a no brainer.
- DaniFong 17y ago
  I'm sorry to say this, but the life of your company, and by proxy your residence, is always subject to factors beyond your control -- random disruptions you need to get around. You could be hit by a bus. It's not all that uncommon. These constraints are a matter of degree.
  - idlewords 17y ago
    Getting deported because your business failed to meet an earnings goal is not a random disruption, and it's pretty un-American to boot. We have laws that let you keep your home in the event of bankruptcy for exactly this reason - the understanding that failure in business should not force you to uproot your family, which is what this bill proposes.
ahmedaly 17y ago
I hope they are serious about it. I am Egyptian, and I lost a funding opportunity because of a visa refusal. But what is worse is.. that at the American embassy, they did not understand what does a startup means :S
BerislavLopac 17y ago
The Startup Visa is the most ridiculous idea ever, as I've been telling and will continue to. Instead of backing a stupid legislation to bring founders to the US, investors should travel the world and fund startups in other countries. There is nearly nothing one can do when starting up in the States than anywhere else.
- hga 17y ago
  One of the common exceptions to "nearly nothing" is establishing a legal business quickly and cheaply. How about the need for cheap and reliable electricity? In plenty of places you have to budget for a serious UPS plus generator setup. Rule of law, in a reasonable time frame? Heck, until very recently it was impractical for a foreign VC firm to invest in Canada. Anyway, the existence of Silicon Valley, it's much smaller brother in the Boston area, and the pale shadows of those two in the rest of the country suggests that while one "can do" a startup elsewhere there seem to be location specific competitive advances.
  - benologist 17y ago
    Those are solvable problems, and it's not like you can never be in SF just because you're based elsewhere in the world ... it's only a plane or two when you're physically needed there. There are negatives to being in SF or the states as well ... you can hire a team in some parts of the world for less than you'll rent space in SF. What are the things you and your startup needs on a daily basis that you can only get in SF / the USA?
    - idlewords 17y ago
      "it's only a plane or two when you're physically needed there" That's assuming you're from a visa waiver country. If you're from anywhere outside Western Europe, Japan or Australia/NZ, getting into the US is a hassle.
      - benologist 17y ago
        That's true and it's a valid point, but when you're from a non-waiver country the US embassies look for reasons you'll leave the states and your business is going to contribute to the list of reasons you'll come back. Certainly there's no guarantee though that some people will ever get into the US. My point really is what on-going reasons are there to be based in the states or specifically SF ... most of the time you're not going to be meeting with investors or other entrepreneurs or hiring, you're just going to be working and that part can be done anywhere.
ethanhuynh 17y ago
I'm from Vietnam and we don't have a good and friendly startup culture here. In fact, it's pretty harsh here, entrepreneurs have to face so many constraints outside their control like government policy, corruption, politics, no support from the community, no angel funds etc .. this is not good for the morale, but we know what we have to do to overcome this, bootstrapping is the only option now, we hope that after gaining the startup momentum, we can move our startup to some other places to continue our dream.
- mbenjaminsmith 17y ago
  No offense but that's exactly why Vietnam (and countless other places) are suboptimal for startups. As soon as people make a mark they jump ship and take with them their knowledge and ability to attract investment. Why don't you become a success AND stay in Vietnam. Help develop a startup culture and educate investors. I'm doing the same thing in Thailand. Feel free to contact me if you want to chat about anything matthew [@] jukaroo [.] com.
  - ethanhuynh 17y ago
    I think Thailand and Vietnam have many things in common regarding the startup culture, you were right mentioning that we can stay in Vietnam and be a success, actually, that's what we always wanted to do. The point here is that most people in Vietnam don't give entrepreneurs enough respect, and being an entrepreneur here means you have to bear a great cost of being seen as "jobless", and in my country, being "jobless" is the next worst thing to being a criminal (Actually my girlfriend just left me because I don't have a job, her family rejected me because I don't have a job). When you go to VC (we have IDG venture fund here, they're the only one fund in tech) to sell your idea, they'll ask you about things like IPs, proven business model, stats about market size, market trends, demographic view and yes, they look at your background carefully, ironically, if you're a businessman with 15 year experience in business and tech and the like and can come up with the "great" idea like Facebook clone (http://bit.ly/c21XyJ http://bit.ly/c21XyJ) or Linkedin clone (http://bit.ly/96o8lm http://bit.ly/96o8lm), chances are high that you'll get the investment. Having relations with government officials is also important here if you want to survive in the long run, especially when it comes to sensitive things like Internet related services like social network or social news ... So, when it comes to new product in new and untested market, you have to do it on your own with your own budget, test and learn. I see many friends of mine gave up their startup dream because they don't have enough support. It's a sad thing, and this must be fixed soon.We want to prove that this is the wrong thing
csomar 17y ago
Am I missing something or what? How does this new Visa helps me? It even makes it more awkward. Let's assume I have a great idea in mind and got accepted at YC; will this Visa help me bootstrap? No, so what's the advantage of this visa. If you succeed to bootstrap from your country, so why move to the US?
idlewords 17y ago
I'm surprised to see otherwise smart people treating this idea seriously. Consider just the following: - the whole point of startups is to test high-risk ideas in the crucible of the market. This approach promotes highly risk-averse behavior (since the penalty for failure is getting expelled from the country, along with your family). - you're replacing a market test with bureaucratic criteria. What does it mean to create five full-time jobs? Can I hire five people the week before the deadline? Can I fire them the week after? - The proposal badly skews the relationship between investor and entrepreneur. Since the entrepreneur's immigration status is conditional on receiving funding, the investor has essentially received a free subsidy from the government, and holds all the cards in the relationship. - Competitors without startup visa founders know what targets the startup must meet, and can undercut them in order to sabotage their ability to meet the visa test. I'm sure others can think of many ways this system can be gamed. The more philosophical objection is that the proposal runs against the basic ideas of a startup - high-risk, high-reward activity, low bureaucratic overhead, a tolerance for repeated failure, and the market as the ultimate arbiter of success. The bill is well-intentioned, but displays a striking level of naivete with regard to people's behavior, and a blithe disregard for the pressures around obtaining and keeping legal residency. The right way to achieve these goals is through comprehensive immigration reform that makes it easier to work legally in the country, acknowledging the economic contribution of millions of undocumented immigrants at every level of the economic ladder.
- DaniFong 17y ago
  Any system will be gamed. The question is whether or not it is preferable to push startups that would be founded out of the country, or destroy them. None of your arguments describe why the startup visa is a worse idea than the status quo. I know literally dozens of foreign residents, working at tech companies, who would love to create a startup here in the SF Bay -- here particularly in the SF Bay, which has advantages and friends of theirs and frankly should be their prerogative, but cannot legally do so because of visa restrictions. This actually kills those startups outright. As for the remaining very important portion of immigration reform that needs to happen, I am not sure that as a country the US can get over its xenophobia enough to change soon. The time is right to make it easier to start companies: we're still in a recession, the political winds are in our favor.

40 points by robg 17y ago

stse 17y ago

What I personally think is most exciting if this gets adopted, is not the bill itself but that US "hackers" see that they can influence politics. I've always been impressed that you, even early on, had organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Free Software Foundation and Creative Commons. But when you talk with Americans today in regards to things like the Pirate Party, you're mostly meet with overall disappointment over the US political system. So hopefully you now get the chance to find a different way to do something similar. Edit: If there isn't already one, someone should make a site for forming and joining interest groups.

davidw 17y ago
> US "hackers" see that they can influence politics. Err... the ones pushing this through are VC's, who are, pretty much by definition, a fairly well to do group. Closer to hackers than, say, Warren Buffet, probably, but still, not quite the same thing.
- idlewords 17y ago
  I was going to say... watching the financial and power elite push through a pet bill is hardly that inspirational. Let's see hackers push through some real patent or copyright reform before we start passing around the cigars.
- stse 17y ago
  That's awesome, getting downvoted and commented on for the one word I put inside quotation marks. I was referring to hackers as in Hacker News i.e. the "startup community". Also it's pretty much impossible to do anything political, especially in the US, without the help of influential people. I could tell you the details of how it's done over here, but something tells me you're not interested.
  - davidw 17y ago
    I didn't downvote you, and I commented because, well, I think you were to some degree wrong (but not wrong in a bad, downvotable way, just incorrect). The "startup community" is not what is driving this bill, it's the VC's.

dnsworks 17y ago

It will be fun to read this bill right before it goes through it's final vote, to see how many ridiculous additions have been tacked onto it..

protomyth 17y ago
Believe me, after a while depression sets in when you do that.

mseebach 17y ago

I'm not going to start a company in a country where my residence permit is conditional on factors beyond my control. That is exactly the kind of arbitrary constraints that makes me not want to spend my career in a big-co. If it's just me, maybe. But I could be bringing a spouse, and there might be a child in play - and at any given time, if my company fails, I could be given two weeks to leave the country permanently? If you want me, I'll come. I'll sign any number of pledges to never burden any welfare budgets, or be convicted of felonies. I'll pay my taxes, and accept it if I can't vote. But I won't compromise on permanent residence.

sachinag 17y ago
Canada finally fixed their laws to make it easy for US-based VCs to invest up there. Couple that with the pretty easy visa requirements for people with technical degrees, and we should see a flock of serious startup entrepreneurs moving to Vancouver and Toronto.
- fnid2 17y ago
  The startup scene in Vancouver is horrible. I can't imagine any entrepreneurs moving there to start a company when Seattle is so close. The talent, the market, and the community are infinitely better in Seattle than Vancouver. Combine that with the exorbitant cost of living and it's a no brainer.
DaniFong 17y ago
I'm sorry to say this, but the life of your company, and by proxy your residence, is always subject to factors beyond your control -- random disruptions you need to get around. You could be hit by a bus. It's not all that uncommon. These constraints are a matter of degree.
- idlewords 17y ago
  Getting deported because your business failed to meet an earnings goal is not a random disruption, and it's pretty un-American to boot. We have laws that let you keep your home in the event of bankruptcy for exactly this reason - the understanding that failure in business should not force you to uproot your family, which is what this bill proposes.

ahmedaly 17y ago

I hope they are serious about it. I am Egyptian, and I lost a funding opportunity because of a visa refusal. But what is worse is.. that at the American embassy, they did not understand what does a startup means :S

BerislavLopac 17y ago

The Startup Visa is the most ridiculous idea ever, as I've been telling and will continue to. Instead of backing a stupid legislation to bring founders to the US, investors should travel the world and fund startups in other countries. There is nearly nothing one can do when starting up in the States than anywhere else.

hga 17y ago
One of the common exceptions to "nearly nothing" is establishing a legal business quickly and cheaply. How about the need for cheap and reliable electricity? In plenty of places you have to budget for a serious UPS plus generator setup. Rule of law, in a reasonable time frame? Heck, until very recently it was impractical for a foreign VC firm to invest in Canada. Anyway, the existence of Silicon Valley, it's much smaller brother in the Boston area, and the pale shadows of those two in the rest of the country suggests that while one "can do" a startup elsewhere there seem to be location specific competitive advances.
- benologist 17y ago
  Those are solvable problems, and it's not like you can never be in SF just because you're based elsewhere in the world ... it's only a plane or two when you're physically needed there. There are negatives to being in SF or the states as well ... you can hire a team in some parts of the world for less than you'll rent space in SF. What are the things you and your startup needs on a daily basis that you can only get in SF / the USA?
  - idlewords 17y ago
    "it's only a plane or two when you're physically needed there" That's assuming you're from a visa waiver country. If you're from anywhere outside Western Europe, Japan or Australia/NZ, getting into the US is a hassle.
    - benologist 17y ago
      That's true and it's a valid point, but when you're from a non-waiver country the US embassies look for reasons you'll leave the states and your business is going to contribute to the list of reasons you'll come back. Certainly there's no guarantee though that some people will ever get into the US. My point really is what on-going reasons are there to be based in the states or specifically SF ... most of the time you're not going to be meeting with investors or other entrepreneurs or hiring, you're just going to be working and that part can be done anywhere.

ethanhuynh 17y ago

I'm from Vietnam and we don't have a good and friendly startup culture here. In fact, it's pretty harsh here, entrepreneurs have to face so many constraints outside their control like government policy, corruption, politics, no support from the community, no angel funds etc .. this is not good for the morale, but we know what we have to do to overcome this, bootstrapping is the only option now, we hope that after gaining the startup momentum, we can move our startup to some other places to continue our dream.

mbenjaminsmith 17y ago
No offense but that's exactly why Vietnam (and countless other places) are suboptimal for startups. As soon as people make a mark they jump ship and take with them their knowledge and ability to attract investment. Why don't you become a success AND stay in Vietnam. Help develop a startup culture and educate investors. I'm doing the same thing in Thailand. Feel free to contact me if you want to chat about anything matthew [@] jukaroo [.] com.
- ethanhuynh 17y ago
  I think Thailand and Vietnam have many things in common regarding the startup culture, you were right mentioning that we can stay in Vietnam and be a success, actually, that's what we always wanted to do. The point here is that most people in Vietnam don't give entrepreneurs enough respect, and being an entrepreneur here means you have to bear a great cost of being seen as "jobless", and in my country, being "jobless" is the next worst thing to being a criminal (Actually my girlfriend just left me because I don't have a job, her family rejected me because I don't have a job). When you go to VC (we have IDG venture fund here, they're the only one fund in tech) to sell your idea, they'll ask you about things like IPs, proven business model, stats about market size, market trends, demographic view and yes, they look at your background carefully, ironically, if you're a businessman with 15 year experience in business and tech and the like and can come up with the "great" idea like Facebook clone (http://bit.ly/c21XyJ http://bit.ly/c21XyJ) or Linkedin clone (http://bit.ly/96o8lm http://bit.ly/96o8lm), chances are high that you'll get the investment. Having relations with government officials is also important here if you want to survive in the long run, especially when it comes to sensitive things like Internet related services like social network or social news ... So, when it comes to new product in new and untested market, you have to do it on your own with your own budget, test and learn. I see many friends of mine gave up their startup dream because they don't have enough support. It's a sad thing, and this must be fixed soon.We want to prove that this is the wrong thing

csomar 17y ago

Am I missing something or what? How does this new Visa helps me? It even makes it more awkward. Let's assume I have a great idea in mind and got accepted at YC; will this Visa help me bootstrap? No, so what's the advantage of this visa. If you succeed to bootstrap from your country, so why move to the US?

idlewords 17y ago

I'm surprised to see otherwise smart people treating this idea seriously. Consider just the following: - the whole point of startups is to test high-risk ideas in the crucible of the market. This approach promotes highly risk-averse behavior (since the penalty for failure is getting expelled from the country, along with your family). - you're replacing a market test with bureaucratic criteria. What does it mean to create five full-time jobs? Can I hire five people the week before the deadline? Can I fire them the week after? - The proposal badly skews the relationship between investor and entrepreneur. Since the entrepreneur's immigration status is conditional on receiving funding, the investor has essentially received a free subsidy from the government, and holds all the cards in the relationship. - Competitors without startup visa founders know what targets the startup must meet, and can undercut them in order to sabotage their ability to meet the visa test. I'm sure others can think of many ways this system can be gamed. The more philosophical objection is that the proposal runs against the basic ideas of a startup - high-risk, high-reward activity, low bureaucratic overhead, a tolerance for repeated failure, and the market as the ultimate arbiter of success. The bill is well-intentioned, but displays a striking level of naivete with regard to people's behavior, and a blithe disregard for the pressures around obtaining and keeping legal residency. The right way to achieve these goals is through comprehensive immigration reform that makes it easier to work legally in the country, acknowledging the economic contribution of millions of undocumented immigrants at every level of the economic ladder.

DaniFong 17y ago
Any system will be gamed. The question is whether or not it is preferable to push startups that would be founded out of the country, or destroy them. None of your arguments describe why the startup visa is a worse idea than the status quo. I know literally dozens of foreign residents, working at tech companies, who would love to create a startup here in the SF Bay -- here particularly in the SF Bay, which has advantages and friends of theirs and frankly should be their prerogative, but cannot legally do so because of visa restrictions. This actually kills those startups outright. As for the remaining very important portion of immigration reform that needs to happen, I am not sure that as a country the US can get over its xenophobia enough to change soon. The time is right to make it easier to start companies: we're still in a recession, the political winds are in our favor.