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I'm on the same boat. But, as counter arguments I see that, a) there is a big(?) risk for Europe itself to fall apart within the next couple of years, b) tho

I'm on the same boat. But, as counter arguments I see that, a) there is a big(?) risk for Europe itself to fall apart within the next couple of years, b) those cities cannot possibly replace London in the next few years. I think they'll probably share the "tech" that London will lose, and the gap will shorten between them and London. Also, by being a contractor in the UK, I now see that this nice tax efficient way of working, does not apply in other countries, Germany for example. So after all, London might still be more attractive for some. ( Ltd tax might fall even more for example )

rwmj 10y ago
The EU falling apart? Unlikely. Mainstream politicians have learned their lesson, which is never offer up such a dumb referendum to their electorate, even one which you would be "certain" to win. The Eurozone: Not in the next 2 years, but the structures are fundamentally unsound so something will have to give. Most likely outcome is further political and economic integration of the Eurozone members which would avoid a breakup at the cost of being unpopular. There's just too much trade that depends on the Euro.
- netheril96 10y ago
  > Mainstream politicians have learned their lesson, which is never offer up such a dumb referendum to their electorate Not if "non-mainstream" politicians win election. Not unlikely at all at this moment.
- ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
  What you simply push aside as a dumb referendum because you do not agree with it, is silly considering your thoughts are not an accurate reflection of the issues with the EU and polling of its members. >Polls recently conducted in Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Czech Republic and Hungary also showed that these countries could follow Britain if it succeeds in leaving the EU. Euroskeptic politicians in these countries have been adding fuel to the fire, stepping up their calls for EU-exits in light of the British referendum. On Wednesday, French right-wing leader Marine Le Pen stressed that France should have its own ‘Frexit’ vote. “What I'm asking for is a referendum in France. Every EU member should be able to have its say in a referendum,” the National Front leader told France's TF1 television. A March poll by the University of Edinburgh found that 53 percent of the French are in favor of a referendum on leaving the Union. 30% of Germans want to quit EU as support for Merkel’s govt. drops below 50% While a YouGov poll in May, commissioned by Handelsblatt newspaper, found that 29 percent of Germans would leave the EU if a referendum was to take place. Only 54 percent of those living in the country supported staying in the bloc. The mood is reportedly the same in the Netherlands, with a February opinion poll finding that 53 percent of Dutch citizens want a 'Nexit' referendum. Geert Wilders, leader of the Dutch right-wing, populist PVV party, currently topping opinion polls, openly expressed hopes a ‘Nexit’ could follow a ‘Brexit.’ https://www.rt.com/viral/348039-brexit-eu-referendum-domino/ https://www.rt.com/viral/348039-brexit-eu-referendum-domino/
  - rwmj 10y ago
    I don't know why people are downvoting you - there certainly is a danger from far right politicians. Personally I don't see it actually happening (especially given the negative example from Brexit), but it's a possibility. I think people only read the first sentence of most posts, and your first sentence is wrong -- everything about this referendum was dumb. It was dumb to have the referendum in the first place. Cameron had it in order to try to resolve an internal Tory party dispute. It was dumb to have a 50:50 threshold. A massive constitutional change should require a supermajority. The arguments (on all sides) were largely lies. And the outcome won't even be what anyone wants. The leavers won't get what they voted for. Almost everyone will be shafted.
    - hardlianotion 10y ago
      I don't think it was dumb to have a referendum. I think a lot of the problems with the European project stem from perception that folk at the top are pulling a fast one over their populations - people should decide when the basis of their government changes. But the circumstance by which the referendum came about was farcical. I don't disagree with the rest of what you say, but I would add that a government that puts together a referendum that is not a foregone conclusion, that does not prepare for an adverse decision, is incompetent and negligent enough to be considered criminal.
  - matroosberg 10y ago
    Labeling the referendum as dumb is IMHO accurate, not because of the outcome, but because of the way it was done. It takes an extremely complex matter and puts it into an simple yes no questions without discussing the consequences. What does it even mean to leave the EU? A lot of leave voters seemed to take it as stopping immigration, which will not happen (since a lot of immigration is coming from outside the EU and freedom of movement with EU states will likely not be removed). In comparision, the Scotish referendum was more detailed and got a lot more debate. The blog article "Brexit was a con" explains that in the first part: https://medium.com/@kirstymhall/brexit-was-a-con-67532113a7c#.m7py10xmr https://medium.com/@kirstymhall/brexit-was-a-con-67532113a7c...
cm2187 10y ago
I wouldn't underestimate the language aspect too. You might get away in a restaurant in Berlin speaking only english, but it's no fun to live in a country where you can't understand anything written, whether it is to fill your taxes, or interact with your bank, or where every website will be localized to the local language. If you and your whole team speak Dutch and Spanish and German, then of course you can hesitate between London, Amsterdam, Barcelona or Berlin.
- antouank 10y ago
  True, that's another big reason for people to not move out of the UK. I've worked in Germany before, and I left mainly because of the language.
  - xiaoma 10y ago
    Why not just learn German? It's relatively close to English and one of the more useful languages to know.
    - antouank 10y ago
      It takes time. I was actually working and taking German classes after work. But that adds to frustration, since you get more tired and you still don't understand anything because it takes a lot of time to get proficient.
    - mike_hearn 10y ago
      Having spent many years living in Switzerland (and learning German), it's really hard for people in our industry to do that. Maybe if you work as a bartender all day you'll get fluent fast, but in the software business the entire industry is oriented around English, so you tend to use English all day even in places where most of your colleagues are from other European countries. And you want to make friends, right? Well, there are lots of other people who want to make friends too: other foreigners who moved there. Who also don't speak the local language. So you end up finding that learning German or whatever ends up being not much easier than doing so in high school: your opportunities to practice are limited. I have learned it, but basically through just doing lessons. My best Swiss friend comes from the French speaking part, so that was no help.

rwmj 10y ago

The EU falling apart? Unlikely. Mainstream politicians have learned their lesson, which is never offer up such a dumb referendum to their electorate, even one which you would be "certain" to win. The Eurozone: Not in the next 2 years, but the structures are fundamentally unsound so something will have to give. Most likely outcome is further political and economic integration of the Eurozone members which would avoid a breakup at the cost of being unpopular. There's just too much trade that depends on the Euro.

netheril96 10y ago
> Mainstream politicians have learned their lesson, which is never offer up such a dumb referendum to their electorate Not if "non-mainstream" politicians win election. Not unlikely at all at this moment.
ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
What you simply push aside as a dumb referendum because you do not agree with it, is silly considering your thoughts are not an accurate reflection of the issues with the EU and polling of its members. >Polls recently conducted in Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Czech Republic and Hungary also showed that these countries could follow Britain if it succeeds in leaving the EU. Euroskeptic politicians in these countries have been adding fuel to the fire, stepping up their calls for EU-exits in light of the British referendum. On Wednesday, French right-wing leader Marine Le Pen stressed that France should have its own ‘Frexit’ vote. “What I'm asking for is a referendum in France. Every EU member should be able to have its say in a referendum,” the National Front leader told France's TF1 television. A March poll by the University of Edinburgh found that 53 percent of the French are in favor of a referendum on leaving the Union. 30% of Germans want to quit EU as support for Merkel’s govt. drops below 50% While a YouGov poll in May, commissioned by Handelsblatt newspaper, found that 29 percent of Germans would leave the EU if a referendum was to take place. Only 54 percent of those living in the country supported staying in the bloc. The mood is reportedly the same in the Netherlands, with a February opinion poll finding that 53 percent of Dutch citizens want a 'Nexit' referendum. Geert Wilders, leader of the Dutch right-wing, populist PVV party, currently topping opinion polls, openly expressed hopes a ‘Nexit’ could follow a ‘Brexit.’ https://www.rt.com/viral/348039-brexit-eu-referendum-domino/ https://www.rt.com/viral/348039-brexit-eu-referendum-domino/
- rwmj 10y ago
  I don't know why people are downvoting you - there certainly is a danger from far right politicians. Personally I don't see it actually happening (especially given the negative example from Brexit), but it's a possibility. I think people only read the first sentence of most posts, and your first sentence is wrong -- everything about this referendum was dumb. It was dumb to have the referendum in the first place. Cameron had it in order to try to resolve an internal Tory party dispute. It was dumb to have a 50:50 threshold. A massive constitutional change should require a supermajority. The arguments (on all sides) were largely lies. And the outcome won't even be what anyone wants. The leavers won't get what they voted for. Almost everyone will be shafted.
  - hardlianotion 10y ago
    I don't think it was dumb to have a referendum. I think a lot of the problems with the European project stem from perception that folk at the top are pulling a fast one over their populations - people should decide when the basis of their government changes. But the circumstance by which the referendum came about was farcical. I don't disagree with the rest of what you say, but I would add that a government that puts together a referendum that is not a foregone conclusion, that does not prepare for an adverse decision, is incompetent and negligent enough to be considered criminal.
- matroosberg 10y ago
  Labeling the referendum as dumb is IMHO accurate, not because of the outcome, but because of the way it was done. It takes an extremely complex matter and puts it into an simple yes no questions without discussing the consequences. What does it even mean to leave the EU? A lot of leave voters seemed to take it as stopping immigration, which will not happen (since a lot of immigration is coming from outside the EU and freedom of movement with EU states will likely not be removed). In comparision, the Scotish referendum was more detailed and got a lot more debate. The blog article "Brexit was a con" explains that in the first part: https://medium.com/@kirstymhall/brexit-was-a-con-67532113a7c#.m7py10xmr https://medium.com/@kirstymhall/brexit-was-a-con-67532113a7c...

cm2187 10y ago

I wouldn't underestimate the language aspect too. You might get away in a restaurant in Berlin speaking only english, but it's no fun to live in a country where you can't understand anything written, whether it is to fill your taxes, or interact with your bank, or where every website will be localized to the local language. If you and your whole team speak Dutch and Spanish and German, then of course you can hesitate between London, Amsterdam, Barcelona or Berlin.

antouank 10y ago
True, that's another big reason for people to not move out of the UK. I've worked in Germany before, and I left mainly because of the language.
- xiaoma 10y ago
  Why not just learn German? It's relatively close to English and one of the more useful languages to know.
  - antouank 10y ago
    It takes time. I was actually working and taking German classes after work. But that adds to frustration, since you get more tired and you still don't understand anything because it takes a lot of time to get proficient.
  - mike_hearn 10y ago
    Having spent many years living in Switzerland (and learning German), it's really hard for people in our industry to do that. Maybe if you work as a bartender all day you'll get fluent fast, but in the software business the entire industry is oriented around English, so you tend to use English all day even in places where most of your colleagues are from other European countries. And you want to make friends, right? Well, there are lots of other people who want to make friends too: other foreigners who moved there. Who also don't speak the local language. So you end up finding that learning German or whatever ends up being not much easier than doing so in high school: your opportunities to practice are limited. I have learned it, but basically through just doing lessons. My best Swiss friend comes from the French speaking part, so that was no help.