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I work in London. Since the referendum, all my European, non British colleagues -including myself - have started to discuss places we could potentially move to,

I work in London. Since the referendum, all my European, non British colleagues -including myself - have started to discuss places we could potentially move to, "just in case". Amsterdam, Barcelona, Berlin are the most popular ones - and I've found myself thinking much more seriously that it might be time to prepare. Perhaps some of my colleagues are on the same page. Yes, there are 2 or 2.5 years when nothing will change theoretically. But do I really want to commit to a country, with uncertainty as to what will happen after this 2.5 years? I suggest everyone affected do their research on the options available. Luckily, there are plenty. Just in case.

Redoubts 10y ago
How is emigration to Europe going to work while the UK leaves the EU? Might you have to go back and reapply for visas?
- hackerboos 10y ago
  Depends on the terms of our exit. Free movement is still on the table for the likely winner of the Conservative leadership.
bogomipz 10y ago
I understand Berlin being a logical choice for a relocation but I haven't heard much about Amsterdam and Barcelona in terms of the tech and start up environment. Are they on par with Berlin or are they "up and comers"? I am also curios, are there practical reasons outside of the start up tech environment that are making you consider Barcelona and Amsterdam.
- mike_hearn 10y ago
  Wages for tech people in Barcelona at least are dramatically worse than in places like London. Amsterdam looks more attractive (much better levels of English as well), but the Netherlands is one of the countries most likely to go through an EU referendum within the next 18 months as well.
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    Are you just speculating regarding a Dutch referendum? Was this gaining momentum prior to the Brexit vote? This is the first I've heard of it.
planetjones 10y ago
I fail to see what the panic is about. Britain will not want to lose access to the single market, so it is inevitable that nothing will materially change regarding immigration. Look at Switzerland whose citizens voted to control EU immigration and are now being told it is impossible. Even implementing a policy which says Switzerland can limit immigration to job sectors where the unemployment level is high is meeting resistance. And why is immigration such a worry anyhow. It is not like Britain would never have immigration. Last time I looked the USA startup scene does not seem to struggle even though they do not have an open borders policy with nearby countries.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  To add to your point about the USA, how many trade tariffs tend to apply to service-based companies with a tech focus (i.e. the majority of tech startups)? From what I've seen, the answer is pretty much none. So long as barriers to tech talent aren't put in place, there's basically nothing holding back the UK tech scene. The fear being generated by the media (along with those that repeat those fears without critical examination) is more damaging than the situation as it stands today. We're talking about something that only happened within the last few weeks, the sky isn't falling, it's all a failure of perception.
  - planetjones 10y ago
    Completely agree. A full brexit could actually be beneficial for Britain as we could get tech talent from anywhere i.e. a level playing field for the whole world, not preference to those countries geographically nearby. I do not think it will happen though.
- ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
  Immigration is a worry because it is no longer simply intra-EU nations allowing free movement of their members, but the millions of low-skilled Middle East and North African migrants who've entered the EU in the last few years will be a strain on nation's finances for decades. Couple this with the aging of Europe and automation on the horizon and there is not the need nor the capability to sustain the new EU residents. If you disagree I'd enjoy a thoughtful response
cm2187 10y ago
Most EU nationals I know qualify or will shortly qualify for citizenship. Just a little bit of paperwork to do once. The US has a very restrictive visa system. It didn't prevent the development of the silicon valley.
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  Just a bit of paperwork: Exam, a few hundred pounds in fees and yes, paperwork to get a British passport. On the other hand, other cities don't require any of that... You can keep your passport and still be accepted by the country. Keep in mind not all countries accept double nationally, so there's a chance someone would have to choose between their original passport (which would be an EU passport) and a watered down British one. Also, what about their families? Not all of them are single white males in their 20s. Their partners would probably want to keep working, not necessarily on qualified jobs that could grant a visa anywhere in the world. What I'm saying is that is not as easy as it might seem. People have different situations to account for.
  - cm2187 10y ago
    You mean moving your house, family and business to another country which language you do not speak and will have to learn is less work and expensive than passing an exam you can prepare over a week end and a couple of forms to post in the mail? Besides, having passed that exam myself I actually think it was a good experience. I learned a few things about the UK.
    - 50CNT 10y ago
      Wouldn't the first apply to moving to the UK too? Language I can see, but then the German Abitur has a requirement of 2 foreign languages, with potentially 3 (English/French, French/Latin, last one depending on what the school offers, usually Spanish/Italian/I think Russian in NE/sometimes Chinese). Some of these languages are substantially similar, which further widens the field, e.g., a French speaker might transition to Italian easily. A fair number of Europeans are ridiculously multilingual.
antouank 10y ago
I'm on the same boat. But, as counter arguments I see that, a) there is a big(?) risk for Europe itself to fall apart within the next couple of years, b) those cities cannot possibly replace London in the next few years. I think they'll probably share the "tech" that London will lose, and the gap will shorten between them and London. Also, by being a contractor in the UK, I now see that this nice tax efficient way of working, does not apply in other countries, Germany for example. So after all, London might still be more attractive for some. ( Ltd tax might fall even more for example )
- rwmj 10y ago
  The EU falling apart? Unlikely. Mainstream politicians have learned their lesson, which is never offer up such a dumb referendum to their electorate, even one which you would be "certain" to win. The Eurozone: Not in the next 2 years, but the structures are fundamentally unsound so something will have to give. Most likely outcome is further political and economic integration of the Eurozone members which would avoid a breakup at the cost of being unpopular. There's just too much trade that depends on the Euro.
  - netheril96 10y ago
    > Mainstream politicians have learned their lesson, which is never offer up such a dumb referendum to their electorate Not if "non-mainstream" politicians win election. Not unlikely at all at this moment.
  - ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
    What you simply push aside as a dumb referendum because you do not agree with it, is silly considering your thoughts are not an accurate reflection of the issues with the EU and polling of its members. >Polls recently conducted in Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Czech Republic and Hungary also showed that these countries could follow Britain if it succeeds in leaving the EU. Euroskeptic politicians in these countries have been adding fuel to the fire, stepping up their calls for EU-exits in light of the British referendum. On Wednesday, French right-wing leader Marine Le Pen stressed that France should have its own ‘Frexit’ vote. “What I'm asking for is a referendum in France. Every EU member should be able to have its say in a referendum,” the National Front leader told France's TF1 television. A March poll by the University of Edinburgh found that 53 percent of the French are in favor of a referendum on leaving the Union. 30% of Germans want to quit EU as support for Merkel’s govt. drops below 50% While a YouGov poll in May, commissioned by Handelsblatt newspaper, found that 29 percent of Germans would leave the EU if a referendum was to take place. Only 54 percent of those living in the country supported staying in the bloc. The mood is reportedly the same in the Netherlands, with a February opinion poll finding that 53 percent of Dutch citizens want a 'Nexit' referendum. Geert Wilders, leader of the Dutch right-wing, populist PVV party, currently topping opinion polls, openly expressed hopes a ‘Nexit’ could follow a ‘Brexit.’ https://www.rt.com/viral/348039-brexit-eu-referendum-domino/ https://www.rt.com/viral/348039-brexit-eu-referendum-domino/
harryf 10y ago
Another option is Switzerland - the startup scene is starting to take off since the finance industry here have started invest in e.g. http://www.businessinsider.com/sc/fintech-startups-in-switzerland-2015-9?IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/sc/fintech-startups-in-switze...
- mike_hearn 10y ago
  It is quite plausible that the Swiss will have their own "Swixit" by next year, because avoiding it now requires another referendum to undo the effects of a previous referendum that would result in automatic cancellation of most (all?) EU/Swiss treaties. Also, the EU has been playing hardball with the Swiss lately, and they don't like it one bit.
jerf 10y ago
You might want to at least give things six months to a year to "settle", for appropriate definitions of settling. You may feel silly fleeing the UK because of Brexit only to discover that the country you fled to exits as well, or enough other countries exit that there isn't any escape from the problem. Or, more relevant than perhaps "feeling silly", you might spend an awful lot of money only to end up in the same place anyhow. The pressures that led to Brexit are not unique to the UK, and have been building for many years. Maybe it'll be unique. Maybe it'll be contained. In fact, maybe it won't even happen. It hasn't happened yet. But with at least similar order-of-magnitude probability, maybe by this time next year one to three other countries will have exited to some extent as well. If you mistake your own political inclinations or beliefs for what is actually likely, no-one will save you from the consequences of your error. It's easy to spin Brexit as a fluke, but it's pretty easy to spin it as a bellweather, too.
- rtpg 10y ago
  Don't forget leaving only for Britain never to invoke Article 50...
- tkyjonathan 10y ago
  That was a consideration a week ago, but since then, EU countries have been galvanised to be more pro-EU.
Hermel 10y ago
Don't panic. Wait until the dust has settled (maybe a year) and then start taking decisions. I'm certain everything will look much less dramatic by then.
meira 10y ago
Well, this is exactly what the brexiters asked for. Good Jobs becoming available to them.

Redoubts 10y ago

How is emigration to Europe going to work while the UK leaves the EU? Might you have to go back and reapply for visas?

hackerboos 10y ago
Depends on the terms of our exit. Free movement is still on the table for the likely winner of the Conservative leadership.

bogomipz 10y ago

I understand Berlin being a logical choice for a relocation but I haven't heard much about Amsterdam and Barcelona in terms of the tech and start up environment. Are they on par with Berlin or are they "up and comers"? I am also curios, are there practical reasons outside of the start up tech environment that are making you consider Barcelona and Amsterdam.

mike_hearn 10y ago
Wages for tech people in Barcelona at least are dramatically worse than in places like London. Amsterdam looks more attractive (much better levels of English as well), but the Netherlands is one of the countries most likely to go through an EU referendum within the next 18 months as well.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  Are you just speculating regarding a Dutch referendum? Was this gaining momentum prior to the Brexit vote? This is the first I've heard of it.

planetjones 10y ago

I fail to see what the panic is about. Britain will not want to lose access to the single market, so it is inevitable that nothing will materially change regarding immigration. Look at Switzerland whose citizens voted to control EU immigration and are now being told it is impossible. Even implementing a policy which says Switzerland can limit immigration to job sectors where the unemployment level is high is meeting resistance. And why is immigration such a worry anyhow. It is not like Britain would never have immigration. Last time I looked the USA startup scene does not seem to struggle even though they do not have an open borders policy with nearby countries.

ZenoArrow 10y ago
To add to your point about the USA, how many trade tariffs tend to apply to service-based companies with a tech focus (i.e. the majority of tech startups)? From what I've seen, the answer is pretty much none. So long as barriers to tech talent aren't put in place, there's basically nothing holding back the UK tech scene. The fear being generated by the media (along with those that repeat those fears without critical examination) is more damaging than the situation as it stands today. We're talking about something that only happened within the last few weeks, the sky isn't falling, it's all a failure of perception.
- planetjones 10y ago
  Completely agree. A full brexit could actually be beneficial for Britain as we could get tech talent from anywhere i.e. a level playing field for the whole world, not preference to those countries geographically nearby. I do not think it will happen though.
ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
Immigration is a worry because it is no longer simply intra-EU nations allowing free movement of their members, but the millions of low-skilled Middle East and North African migrants who've entered the EU in the last few years will be a strain on nation's finances for decades. Couple this with the aging of Europe and automation on the horizon and there is not the need nor the capability to sustain the new EU residents. If you disagree I'd enjoy a thoughtful response

cm2187 10y ago

Most EU nationals I know qualify or will shortly qualify for citizenship. Just a little bit of paperwork to do once. The US has a very restrictive visa system. It didn't prevent the development of the silicon valley.

NetStrikeForce 10y ago
Just a bit of paperwork: Exam, a few hundred pounds in fees and yes, paperwork to get a British passport. On the other hand, other cities don't require any of that... You can keep your passport and still be accepted by the country. Keep in mind not all countries accept double nationally, so there's a chance someone would have to choose between their original passport (which would be an EU passport) and a watered down British one. Also, what about their families? Not all of them are single white males in their 20s. Their partners would probably want to keep working, not necessarily on qualified jobs that could grant a visa anywhere in the world. What I'm saying is that is not as easy as it might seem. People have different situations to account for.
- cm2187 10y ago
  You mean moving your house, family and business to another country which language you do not speak and will have to learn is less work and expensive than passing an exam you can prepare over a week end and a couple of forms to post in the mail? Besides, having passed that exam myself I actually think it was a good experience. I learned a few things about the UK.
  - 50CNT 10y ago
    Wouldn't the first apply to moving to the UK too? Language I can see, but then the German Abitur has a requirement of 2 foreign languages, with potentially 3 (English/French, French/Latin, last one depending on what the school offers, usually Spanish/Italian/I think Russian in NE/sometimes Chinese). Some of these languages are substantially similar, which further widens the field, e.g., a French speaker might transition to Italian easily. A fair number of Europeans are ridiculously multilingual.

antouank 10y ago

I'm on the same boat. But, as counter arguments I see that, a) there is a big(?) risk for Europe itself to fall apart within the next couple of years, b) those cities cannot possibly replace London in the next few years. I think they'll probably share the "tech" that London will lose, and the gap will shorten between them and London. Also, by being a contractor in the UK, I now see that this nice tax efficient way of working, does not apply in other countries, Germany for example. So after all, London might still be more attractive for some. ( Ltd tax might fall even more for example )

rwmj 10y ago
The EU falling apart? Unlikely. Mainstream politicians have learned their lesson, which is never offer up such a dumb referendum to their electorate, even one which you would be "certain" to win. The Eurozone: Not in the next 2 years, but the structures are fundamentally unsound so something will have to give. Most likely outcome is further political and economic integration of the Eurozone members which would avoid a breakup at the cost of being unpopular. There's just too much trade that depends on the Euro.
- netheril96 10y ago
  > Mainstream politicians have learned their lesson, which is never offer up such a dumb referendum to their electorate Not if "non-mainstream" politicians win election. Not unlikely at all at this moment.
- ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
  What you simply push aside as a dumb referendum because you do not agree with it, is silly considering your thoughts are not an accurate reflection of the issues with the EU and polling of its members. >Polls recently conducted in Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Czech Republic and Hungary also showed that these countries could follow Britain if it succeeds in leaving the EU. Euroskeptic politicians in these countries have been adding fuel to the fire, stepping up their calls for EU-exits in light of the British referendum. On Wednesday, French right-wing leader Marine Le Pen stressed that France should have its own ‘Frexit’ vote. “What I'm asking for is a referendum in France. Every EU member should be able to have its say in a referendum,” the National Front leader told France's TF1 television. A March poll by the University of Edinburgh found that 53 percent of the French are in favor of a referendum on leaving the Union. 30% of Germans want to quit EU as support for Merkel’s govt. drops below 50% While a YouGov poll in May, commissioned by Handelsblatt newspaper, found that 29 percent of Germans would leave the EU if a referendum was to take place. Only 54 percent of those living in the country supported staying in the bloc. The mood is reportedly the same in the Netherlands, with a February opinion poll finding that 53 percent of Dutch citizens want a 'Nexit' referendum. Geert Wilders, leader of the Dutch right-wing, populist PVV party, currently topping opinion polls, openly expressed hopes a ‘Nexit’ could follow a ‘Brexit.’ https://www.rt.com/viral/348039-brexit-eu-referendum-domino/ https://www.rt.com/viral/348039-brexit-eu-referendum-domino/

harryf 10y ago

Another option is Switzerland - the startup scene is starting to take off since the finance industry here have started invest in e.g. http://www.businessinsider.com/sc/fintech-startups-in-switzerland-2015-9?IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/sc/fintech-startups-in-switze...

mike_hearn 10y ago
It is quite plausible that the Swiss will have their own "Swixit" by next year, because avoiding it now requires another referendum to undo the effects of a previous referendum that would result in automatic cancellation of most (all?) EU/Swiss treaties. Also, the EU has been playing hardball with the Swiss lately, and they don't like it one bit.

jerf 10y ago

You might want to at least give things six months to a year to "settle", for appropriate definitions of settling. You may feel silly fleeing the UK because of Brexit only to discover that the country you fled to exits as well, or enough other countries exit that there isn't any escape from the problem. Or, more relevant than perhaps "feeling silly", you might spend an awful lot of money only to end up in the same place anyhow. The pressures that led to Brexit are not unique to the UK, and have been building for many years. Maybe it'll be unique. Maybe it'll be contained. In fact, maybe it won't even happen. It hasn't happened yet. But with at least similar order-of-magnitude probability, maybe by this time next year one to three other countries will have exited to some extent as well. If you mistake your own political inclinations or beliefs for what is actually likely, no-one will save you from the consequences of your error. It's easy to spin Brexit as a fluke, but it's pretty easy to spin it as a bellweather, too.

rtpg 10y ago
Don't forget leaving only for Britain never to invoke Article 50...
tkyjonathan 10y ago
That was a consideration a week ago, but since then, EU countries have been galvanised to be more pro-EU.

Hermel 10y ago

Don't panic. Wait until the dust has settled (maybe a year) and then start taking decisions. I'm certain everything will look much less dramatic by then.

meira 10y ago

Well, this is exactly what the brexiters asked for. Good Jobs becoming available to them.