7 ms·

> the tech seem definitely doesn't seem as vibrant as that of London at a quick glance. That could change as people decide against London and for EU cities. I'

by johneth 10y ago

> the tech seem definitely doesn't seem as vibrant as that of London at a quick glance. That could change as people decide against London and for EU cities. I'd say Dublin has quite a chance, too (although certainly not to the same extent).

dogma1138 10y ago
One of the main reasons that "IT" and developers specifically choose the UK or more specifically London it's that it's the only place where you can get salaries which are even remotely close to what you get in the US. A developer in spain earns about 35K Euro's, a developer in Berlin earns 60K. Deserving or not IT doesn't pay more than most professional positions in the EU and in many places you would be getting paid about as much as some public sector workers and teachers. While the average UK developer salary isn't considerably higher than Germany, the London salaries are considerably higher and it is the only tech hub where developers can break the 100K GBP(~130K US in the current market, but it was 150K+ just a year ago) mark in Europe. Add to that the fact that non-base compensation is very low in Europe in general, bonuses are fairly low, equity is considerably rarer than in the US, large tech companies would give you access to some sort of an employee investment plan but that's about it the UK was and still is pretty important in keeping IT talent within the EU. Given the usual risk averse culture of most of the continental states (with somewhat the exception of Eastern europe and the baltic states) it's quite unlikely that a true startup hub can emerge anywhere else, the UK or again more specifically London had access to a lot of financial capital which helped it to compensate for the usual European aversion from risk, venture capital and the startup culture in general.
- k-mcgrady 10y ago
  >> "London salaries are considerably higher and it is the only tech hub where developers can break the 100K GBP" This might be true for big companies but certainly not startups. In my experience mid-level developers can expect around £45K and senior £60k (at startups). You could break definitely break £100k with contract work though.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    More or less but is what's available, same thing goes for the continent, a developer for Amazon in Berlin would be making 60-65K euro's. The UK used to be a big upgrade even outside of London due to the relative strength of the currency(especially during the Euro crisis), but the EUR and the GBP are almost at parity these days so that's gone (if you are making 50K GBP it's 59K US, if you are making 50K EUR it's 55K US these days).
    - distances 10y ago
      Just pure salary comparison isn't enough though. London has crazy living costs, and Berlin's response is the heavy taxation (about 40%-45% including the compulsory health insurance).
      - bogomipz 10y ago
        40-45%? Is this true across Germany? Wouldn't this put it higher than Sweden?
        kuschku 10y ago
        That’s after including healthcare and insurances, usually. (Against all rumors, Germany doesn’t have universal nationalized healthcare)
        distances 10y ago
        As the other commenter mentioned, this is after including a compulsory health insurance which is about 15% of your salary. And yes, taxation in this income bracket is higher than in the Nordic countries. Can't say if this is true across Germany. You can also choose private insurance if your income is high enough, which can then be cheaper for you than the mentioned 15%. The income limit for that is something like 55-60k/year, if I recall correctly.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        London has a high cost of living only really around rent, and if you are willing to flat share, or live in a non-central location you don't pay that much. Sure it's not the 300 EUR a month you can get in some other major EU cities but it also doesn't have to be 3000 GBP a month for a 2 bedroom either (and it can go much higher than 3000 for a 2 bed/NYC size studio if you were wondering).
- planetjones 10y ago
  it's that it's the only place where you can get salaries which are even remotely close to what you get in the US not sure developers in Switzerland, especially those at Googles European hub in Zurich would agree.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  Do European start ups simply not have access to London VC money simply because its denominated in pounds? I guess I didn't realize that the continental countries were so risk averse. Are there any Eastern European countries that have a more suitable risk profile that are also burgeoning tech sectors? Is Estonia a possibility?
k-mcgrady 10y ago
The problem with Dublin is cost of living. Comparing my London costs to a friend in Dublin he's paying more for pretty much everything and usually by a significant amount. Berlin would also be a better choice for a lot of people as it is on mainland Europe so easier to travel to (people can drive with all of their belongings when moving).

by johneth 10y ago

dogma1138 10y ago

One of the main reasons that "IT" and developers specifically choose the UK or more specifically London it's that it's the only place where you can get salaries which are even remotely close to what you get in the US. A developer in spain earns about 35K Euro's, a developer in Berlin earns 60K. Deserving or not IT doesn't pay more than most professional positions in the EU and in many places you would be getting paid about as much as some public sector workers and teachers. While the average UK developer salary isn't considerably higher than Germany, the London salaries are considerably higher and it is the only tech hub where developers can break the 100K GBP(~130K US in the current market, but it was 150K+ just a year ago) mark in Europe. Add to that the fact that non-base compensation is very low in Europe in general, bonuses are fairly low, equity is considerably rarer than in the US, large tech companies would give you access to some sort of an employee investment plan but that's about it the UK was and still is pretty important in keeping IT talent within the EU. Given the usual risk averse culture of most of the continental states (with somewhat the exception of Eastern europe and the baltic states) it's quite unlikely that a true startup hub can emerge anywhere else, the UK or again more specifically London had access to a lot of financial capital which helped it to compensate for the usual European aversion from risk, venture capital and the startup culture in general.

k-mcgrady 10y ago
>> "London salaries are considerably higher and it is the only tech hub where developers can break the 100K GBP" This might be true for big companies but certainly not startups. In my experience mid-level developers can expect around £45K and senior £60k (at startups). You could break definitely break £100k with contract work though.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  More or less but is what's available, same thing goes for the continent, a developer for Amazon in Berlin would be making 60-65K euro's. The UK used to be a big upgrade even outside of London due to the relative strength of the currency(especially during the Euro crisis), but the EUR and the GBP are almost at parity these days so that's gone (if you are making 50K GBP it's 59K US, if you are making 50K EUR it's 55K US these days).
  - distances 10y ago
    Just pure salary comparison isn't enough though. London has crazy living costs, and Berlin's response is the heavy taxation (about 40%-45% including the compulsory health insurance).
    - bogomipz 10y ago
      40-45%? Is this true across Germany? Wouldn't this put it higher than Sweden?
      - kuschku 10y ago
        That’s after including healthcare and insurances, usually. (Against all rumors, Germany doesn’t have universal nationalized healthcare)
      - distances 10y ago
        As the other commenter mentioned, this is after including a compulsory health insurance which is about 15% of your salary. And yes, taxation in this income bracket is higher than in the Nordic countries. Can't say if this is true across Germany. You can also choose private insurance if your income is high enough, which can then be cheaper for you than the mentioned 15%. The income limit for that is something like 55-60k/year, if I recall correctly.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      London has a high cost of living only really around rent, and if you are willing to flat share, or live in a non-central location you don't pay that much. Sure it's not the 300 EUR a month you can get in some other major EU cities but it also doesn't have to be 3000 GBP a month for a 2 bedroom either (and it can go much higher than 3000 for a 2 bed/NYC size studio if you were wondering).
planetjones 10y ago
it's that it's the only place where you can get salaries which are even remotely close to what you get in the US not sure developers in Switzerland, especially those at Googles European hub in Zurich would agree.
bogomipz 10y ago
Do European start ups simply not have access to London VC money simply because its denominated in pounds? I guess I didn't realize that the continental countries were so risk averse. Are there any Eastern European countries that have a more suitable risk profile that are also burgeoning tech sectors? Is Estonia a possibility?

k-mcgrady 10y ago

The problem with Dublin is cost of living. Comparing my London costs to a friend in Dublin he's paying more for pretty much everything and usually by a significant amount. Berlin would also be a better choice for a lot of people as it is on mainland Europe so easier to travel to (people can drive with all of their belongings when moving).