4 ms·

Getting reasons for why you're not getting hired from companies is basically not an option- even if they tell you anything it's likely safety speak BS unrelated

Getting reasons for why you're not getting hired from companies is basically not an option- even if they tell you anything it's likely safety speak BS unrelated to why. As a guy who's been on both sides of the metaphorical table I know what it's like to bomb but it's almost worse when you feel like you did well and then really have no clue, so I empathize with you for that. From the other side, I implement an everybody says yes hiring scheme. If an interviewer says no we talk about why. We've had most technical no's overturned when the other interviewers relate a positive interaction in a similar technical area and we come to a conclusion that it was as simple as how the question was asked, or maybe that is a specific weakness made up for in another area. The no's that are almost never overturned are the ones where an interviewer just didn't seem to like the candidate personally. I don't expect everyone to be friends, bristly people are fine if they're generally capable of some team play, but if someone walks out of that room saying I couldn't stand to spend more time with that person than my family, that's it- we're not going to hire. I don't want everyone on the team drinking from the same kool aid, and we don't have to be friends or even that friendly. We have to be able to work together and get shit done, and if one of my employees I trust enough to do interviews says no, then even a very talented developer isn't going to join the team. With all that being said, I don't know what kinds of teams you're interviewing for, it may be a niche thing or it could be they don't like you- it's a relationship though, you will eventually find a decent match. If you want to do a trial run through with me with a no bullshit no PC response as to my opinion on it I'd be happy to carve out some time. Message me on Twitter @ashurexm and we can set something up. You've got to have pretty good skills to get 12 in person interviews in a shortish amount of time.

bigtunacan 10y ago
@jakebasile, Whether you take manyxcxi up on this or not; I think s/he is making a great suggestion here. 12 interviews and zero offers is a lot of interviews. A few feedback style interviews with some candid feedback might do you some good. Technical skills aside it is possible you just are not interviewing well. Also a couple of somewhat related questions. 1) How well are you at reading the interview outcome? Do you leave these interviews thinking you will be made an offer or do you leave with a pretty good idea that a no is coming your way? 2) Rather than waiting for a rejection and then asking "why not", have you tried asking for the "why not" during the actual interview? At the end of almost every interview someone will wrap it up saying something along the lines, "Do you have any more questions?" I have had plenty of candidates ask me (and I myself ask if I'm the candidate), "What do you think I could have done differently today to improve my chance of success with your organization?" This is usually met with a more honest feedback than the ask after rejection for numerous reasons. 1) Less HR cover my ass BS; after the rejection companies are worried anything they say could be used to sue them. 2) More people in the room so you may get more than one perspective. 3) You haven't yet been rejected so you may also hear some positives; "Well you really impressed us on X, but you could focus more on Y." This can help you to play to your strengths in the future as well as areas you need to work on.
- jakebasile 10y ago
  Yes, I've replied to them separately. I think it would be valuable as well. I gave up on trying to gauge the outcome of the interviews. Most of them I thought I did very well on, some above average, and a few I knew went poorly. All of them had the same outcome. One interview battery in particular stands out. I interviewed at least 6 times over two weeks, some 1:1, some 1:many. I interviewed with the team, an unrelated employee for a culture interview, the VP of engineering, and a C level exec. All felt great, all feedback from the recruiter was positive, but after everything was done I was told the position "wouldn't challenge me enough" or something similar. I was devastated. I have never thought about asking for interview feedback during the interview. That is a good idea.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    Are you possibly aiming too low? I know that one thing that is a huge red flag for me is an apparently overqualified candidate.
    - jakebasile 10y ago
      It's tough to gauge, but the jobs I apply for seem right to me based on listed requirements, years of experience, etc.
mbubb 10y ago
"but it's almost worse when you feel like you did well and then really have no clue" true, true Had that experience at a certain CIA backed entity in the west village. Really wished I could have gotten a post mortem. Sometimes it is purely economic - I had an offer withdrawn back in 2009 and later had it reoffered when the company was in better times. It sucks to have something go sour when the interview process has positive momentum
- bigtunacan 10y ago
  mbubb, Along the lines of your "offer withdrawn"; in 2004 I had an offer from Acclaim. We agreed on a number and HR said they would be sending me over the official offer letter and start date by the end of the week. The week comes and goes, but no contact. The following Monday I give a call and leave a brief follow up voicemail, "Hey, haven't received the offer letter, just checking in." (something along those lines). Finally about three weeks later I get a call from this poor HR woman; she tells me that Acclaim has declared bankruptcy and she is really sorry she didn't contact me earlier, but that she had shown up to work one day and the doors to the office were literally padlocked shut and under guard since their assets had been seized for auction.
jakebasile 10y ago
Thanks for the thoughtful reply and generous offer of help. The responses I have received indicate (if they mention anything at all) that the team liked me, thought I was a professional and friendly person, good at conflict resolution, and so on. As you say, it might just be a smokescreen but I have no conflicting information from anyone I know or previously worked with telling me that I'm not a good teammate. I'll send you a message soon, it would be helpful to get an outside opinion.
- manyxcxi 10y ago
  All one can do is go by what they say. There is a third option that I've been on both sides of as well: they think you're too expensive and/or you'll be a flight risk. I've had a number of occasions where the feedback was overwhelmingly positive and I just knew I was having a great run only to not get an offer and an explanation via the recruiter (mine or theirs) that they just couldn't afford me. This is a totally valid reason, but I usually make it clear that $X or the general vicinity plus other considerations is the starting point and give them an opportunity to bag out early- so this is an outcome that pisses me off with the caveat that I've had the budget reduced for a position mid-hiring process so I know it's not necessarily BS or intentional time wasting. The one time it happened to me I let them know for real what the reason was and they wound up working for us a year later. Whenever I say someone's too expensive internally it has meant that they don't come armed with the tools I'd expect an $Y per year salary would warrant. Sometimes they're our best candidate and we just "pay and pray", other times my feedback is just that, "We don't value what you bring to the table at the same level you do," and we try to negotiate. The flight risk is the trickier one, rarely will people even hint at this. They're either worried that you're going to be bored quickly (which comes up a lot depending on the role) or that you seem to be chasing money and/or titles. If it's the former I specifically tell them we like them, we want to make an offer, but we're worried that the day to day work may be unfulfilling in the long run based on what they've made us think about them during the interviews. By the way, my anecdotal track record for this is pretty good- these people are usually gone in 18 months, which is just about the time you hit your stride and go on auto-pilot plus a few months to figure out you're really effing bored. I can't recall anyone we've thought this about that stuck around past 30 months. The job hopping and money chasing is what it is. If it's true or not, you can't really unbrand yourself of it when they perceive it. I don't begrudge anyone for doing it, I have never been at the same company (whether for myself or others) for more than 4 years. I think everyone should be looking out for the best interest of their careers and families, your tenure at a company doesn't guarantee a thing, just do your best and be ethical while you're there. Be that as it may, if I've got two generally equivalent candidates and one is perceived to be more likely to stick around, s/he'll get the first offer.
gmarx 10y ago
How often does that happen? I feel most people kinda like or are neutral on most other people. I can't remember the last time I met a developer I thought I couldn't work with because of his personality
- manyxcxi 10y ago
  I've only ever come out of an interview one time thinking that the guy I was talking to was a real jerk and I'd never work with him. I've come out of most pretty meh, just as you said. For a stretch we probably did 70 interviews a year for 3-4 years spread across 9-15 participants. It seems like every year there was at least one HELL NO candidate on personality by someone.

bigtunacan 10y ago

@jakebasile, Whether you take manyxcxi up on this or not; I think s/he is making a great suggestion here. 12 interviews and zero offers is a lot of interviews. A few feedback style interviews with some candid feedback might do you some good. Technical skills aside it is possible you just are not interviewing well. Also a couple of somewhat related questions. 1) How well are you at reading the interview outcome? Do you leave these interviews thinking you will be made an offer or do you leave with a pretty good idea that a no is coming your way? 2) Rather than waiting for a rejection and then asking "why not", have you tried asking for the "why not" during the actual interview? At the end of almost every interview someone will wrap it up saying something along the lines, "Do you have any more questions?" I have had plenty of candidates ask me (and I myself ask if I'm the candidate), "What do you think I could have done differently today to improve my chance of success with your organization?" This is usually met with a more honest feedback than the ask after rejection for numerous reasons. 1) Less HR cover my ass BS; after the rejection companies are worried anything they say could be used to sue them. 2) More people in the room so you may get more than one perspective. 3) You haven't yet been rejected so you may also hear some positives; "Well you really impressed us on X, but you could focus more on Y." This can help you to play to your strengths in the future as well as areas you need to work on.

jakebasile 10y ago
Yes, I've replied to them separately. I think it would be valuable as well. I gave up on trying to gauge the outcome of the interviews. Most of them I thought I did very well on, some above average, and a few I knew went poorly. All of them had the same outcome. One interview battery in particular stands out. I interviewed at least 6 times over two weeks, some 1:1, some 1:many. I interviewed with the team, an unrelated employee for a culture interview, the VP of engineering, and a C level exec. All felt great, all feedback from the recruiter was positive, but after everything was done I was told the position "wouldn't challenge me enough" or something similar. I was devastated. I have never thought about asking for interview feedback during the interview. That is a good idea.
- ams6110 10y ago
  Are you possibly aiming too low? I know that one thing that is a huge red flag for me is an apparently overqualified candidate.
  - jakebasile 10y ago
    It's tough to gauge, but the jobs I apply for seem right to me based on listed requirements, years of experience, etc.

mbubb 10y ago

"but it's almost worse when you feel like you did well and then really have no clue" true, true Had that experience at a certain CIA backed entity in the west village. Really wished I could have gotten a post mortem. Sometimes it is purely economic - I had an offer withdrawn back in 2009 and later had it reoffered when the company was in better times. It sucks to have something go sour when the interview process has positive momentum

bigtunacan 10y ago
mbubb, Along the lines of your "offer withdrawn"; in 2004 I had an offer from Acclaim. We agreed on a number and HR said they would be sending me over the official offer letter and start date by the end of the week. The week comes and goes, but no contact. The following Monday I give a call and leave a brief follow up voicemail, "Hey, haven't received the offer letter, just checking in." (something along those lines). Finally about three weeks later I get a call from this poor HR woman; she tells me that Acclaim has declared bankruptcy and she is really sorry she didn't contact me earlier, but that she had shown up to work one day and the doors to the office were literally padlocked shut and under guard since their assets had been seized for auction.

jakebasile 10y ago

Thanks for the thoughtful reply and generous offer of help. The responses I have received indicate (if they mention anything at all) that the team liked me, thought I was a professional and friendly person, good at conflict resolution, and so on. As you say, it might just be a smokescreen but I have no conflicting information from anyone I know or previously worked with telling me that I'm not a good teammate. I'll send you a message soon, it would be helpful to get an outside opinion.

manyxcxi 10y ago
All one can do is go by what they say. There is a third option that I've been on both sides of as well: they think you're too expensive and/or you'll be a flight risk. I've had a number of occasions where the feedback was overwhelmingly positive and I just knew I was having a great run only to not get an offer and an explanation via the recruiter (mine or theirs) that they just couldn't afford me. This is a totally valid reason, but I usually make it clear that $X or the general vicinity plus other considerations is the starting point and give them an opportunity to bag out early- so this is an outcome that pisses me off with the caveat that I've had the budget reduced for a position mid-hiring process so I know it's not necessarily BS or intentional time wasting. The one time it happened to me I let them know for real what the reason was and they wound up working for us a year later. Whenever I say someone's too expensive internally it has meant that they don't come armed with the tools I'd expect an $Y per year salary would warrant. Sometimes they're our best candidate and we just "pay and pray", other times my feedback is just that, "We don't value what you bring to the table at the same level you do," and we try to negotiate. The flight risk is the trickier one, rarely will people even hint at this. They're either worried that you're going to be bored quickly (which comes up a lot depending on the role) or that you seem to be chasing money and/or titles. If it's the former I specifically tell them we like them, we want to make an offer, but we're worried that the day to day work may be unfulfilling in the long run based on what they've made us think about them during the interviews. By the way, my anecdotal track record for this is pretty good- these people are usually gone in 18 months, which is just about the time you hit your stride and go on auto-pilot plus a few months to figure out you're really effing bored. I can't recall anyone we've thought this about that stuck around past 30 months. The job hopping and money chasing is what it is. If it's true or not, you can't really unbrand yourself of it when they perceive it. I don't begrudge anyone for doing it, I have never been at the same company (whether for myself or others) for more than 4 years. I think everyone should be looking out for the best interest of their careers and families, your tenure at a company doesn't guarantee a thing, just do your best and be ethical while you're there. Be that as it may, if I've got two generally equivalent candidates and one is perceived to be more likely to stick around, s/he'll get the first offer.

gmarx 10y ago

How often does that happen? I feel most people kinda like or are neutral on most other people. I can't remember the last time I met a developer I thought I couldn't work with because of his personality

manyxcxi 10y ago
I've only ever come out of an interview one time thinking that the guy I was talking to was a real jerk and I'd never work with him. I've come out of most pretty meh, just as you said. For a stretch we probably did 70 interviews a year for 3-4 years spread across 9-15 participants. It seems like every year there was at least one HELL NO candidate on personality by someone.