4 ms·

This is a fantasy. Making ivory trade illegal today in every country in the world wouldn't suddenly make the demand go away. It only drives the price up and ma

This is a fantasy. Making ivory trade illegal today in every country in the world wouldn't suddenly make the demand go away. It only drives the price up and makes crime and violence more likely as the rewards are even higher. Take the market for all kinds of drugs as an easy example. Making it illegal is very short-sighted: it doesn't suddenly make drugs disappear from society, it just makes it more expensive and this incentivizes people to crime to protect their drug business. If it was legal, drug crime would dry up overnight, like it did when Alcohol prohibition ended. You don't see the brewing company that makes Miller lite take out a hit on Yuengling Lager nowadays, do you? If you want to preserve these animals, legal markets for them should be strongly encouraged. Think of solutions that may be developed as far as harvesting ivory that wouldn't kill the animals if it was legal. Maybe private farming that sustains these populations in some way would be developed. Chickens that lay eggs aren't in danger of going extinct anytime soon because they're being preserved because they make people money. Just having a market for a good isn't a bad thing. Just driving it underground harder and harder encourages poor and desperate people to risk everything for a massive payday.

adamnemecek 10y ago
> It only drives the price up and makes crime and violence more likely as the rewards are even higher. What's the black market price for Kinder Surprise eggs, an item that's illegal in the US. Comparing this with drugs is not the same. No one "needs" ivory the same way they "need" heroin. > Making it illegal is very short-sighted: Why is it that poaching skyrockets whenever the restrictions are relaxed? > Think of solutions that may be developed as far as harvesting ivory that wouldn't kill the animals if it was legal. How does that stop poaching? > Maybe private farming that sustains these populations in some way would be developed. Do you know much about elephants? Do you know much about elephant husbandry? Can you talk a bit more about these proposals and the possible problems?
- soyiuz 10y ago
  > What's the black market price for Kinder Surprise eggs, an item that's illegal in the US. Kinder eggs are not a good analogy. The market demand is not really for "Kinder eggs" it is for "kid's chocolate." The segment has many alternatives. If all chocolate was banned (or difficult to source as it was in the Soviet Union) we would indeed see a thriving black market (as it was in SU).
  - adamnemecek 10y ago
    Whereas ivory doesn't have alternatives?
    - soyiuz 10y ago
      Not in the sense that other metals can be an "alternative" for gold. Brand name (Kinder) vs. the substance (chocolate).
- soyiuz 10y ago
  > Why is it that poaching skyrockets whenever the restrictions are relaxed? Because restriction on consumption alone are not effective. One must address the production side of the equation (through farming, artificial ivory, forced dehorning).
  - adamnemecek 10y ago
    Farming isn't really possible.
    - soyiuz 10y ago
      Farming wild animals is not really possible. Selective breeding or gene editing for domestication is within the realm of possibilities. The problem needs funding and innovation.
      - adamnemecek 10y ago
        I don't think that you know what you are talking about so I'll just leave the discussion now.
        soyiuz 10y ago
        Suit yourself. For others some constructive info: gene editing horns out was successfully done in cows. See http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/27/us/2015-11-27-us-animal-gene-editing.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/27/us/2015-11-27-us-animal-ge... Similar approaches could be explored in wild populations. See https://www.technologyreview.com/s/542886/can-genetic-engineering-save-endangered-rhinos/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/542886/can-genetic-engine... Gene editing for domestic traits, see http://nabc.cals.cornell.edu/Publications/Reports/nabc_26/26_1_3_Hackett.pdf http://nabc.cals.cornell.edu/Publications/Reports/nabc_26/26...
mthoms 10y ago
Except that farming ivory is no where near to being economically or environmentally viable. It's not even within the realm of possibility. If you've got evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it.
- soyiuz 10y ago
  We could imagine a dehorning program that is run by the government to stem poaching.
  - mthoms 10y ago
    You mean a government run program to remove the horns of all wild animals subseptible to poaching? Interesting thought… but it doesn't sound viable to me based on logistics alone. Are there any documented cases of this working?
    - soyiuz 10y ago
      Yes exactly. Dehorning has been tried with various levels of success in India, Namibia, and elsewhere. See for example http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/132/1328569146.pdf http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/132/1328569146..... Another viable idea would be to genetically edit the horns out.

adamnemecek 10y ago

> It only drives the price up and makes crime and violence more likely as the rewards are even higher. What's the black market price for Kinder Surprise eggs, an item that's illegal in the US. Comparing this with drugs is not the same. No one "needs" ivory the same way they "need" heroin. > Making it illegal is very short-sighted: Why is it that poaching skyrockets whenever the restrictions are relaxed? > Think of solutions that may be developed as far as harvesting ivory that wouldn't kill the animals if it was legal. How does that stop poaching? > Maybe private farming that sustains these populations in some way would be developed. Do you know much about elephants? Do you know much about elephant husbandry? Can you talk a bit more about these proposals and the possible problems?

soyiuz 10y ago
> What's the black market price for Kinder Surprise eggs, an item that's illegal in the US. Kinder eggs are not a good analogy. The market demand is not really for "Kinder eggs" it is for "kid's chocolate." The segment has many alternatives. If all chocolate was banned (or difficult to source as it was in the Soviet Union) we would indeed see a thriving black market (as it was in SU).
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  Whereas ivory doesn't have alternatives?
  - soyiuz 10y ago
    Not in the sense that other metals can be an "alternative" for gold. Brand name (Kinder) vs. the substance (chocolate).
soyiuz 10y ago
> Why is it that poaching skyrockets whenever the restrictions are relaxed? Because restriction on consumption alone are not effective. One must address the production side of the equation (through farming, artificial ivory, forced dehorning).
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  Farming isn't really possible.
  - soyiuz 10y ago
    Farming wild animals is not really possible. Selective breeding or gene editing for domestication is within the realm of possibilities. The problem needs funding and innovation.
    - adamnemecek 10y ago
      I don't think that you know what you are talking about so I'll just leave the discussion now.
      - soyiuz 10y ago
        Suit yourself. For others some constructive info: gene editing horns out was successfully done in cows. See http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/27/us/2015-11-27-us-animal-gene-editing.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/27/us/2015-11-27-us-animal-ge... Similar approaches could be explored in wild populations. See https://www.technologyreview.com/s/542886/can-genetic-engineering-save-endangered-rhinos/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/542886/can-genetic-engine... Gene editing for domestic traits, see http://nabc.cals.cornell.edu/Publications/Reports/nabc_26/26_1_3_Hackett.pdf http://nabc.cals.cornell.edu/Publications/Reports/nabc_26/26...

mthoms 10y ago

Except that farming ivory is no where near to being economically or environmentally viable. It's not even within the realm of possibility. If you've got evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it.

soyiuz 10y ago
We could imagine a dehorning program that is run by the government to stem poaching.
- mthoms 10y ago
  You mean a government run program to remove the horns of all wild animals subseptible to poaching? Interesting thought… but it doesn't sound viable to me based on logistics alone. Are there any documented cases of this working?
  - soyiuz 10y ago
    Yes exactly. Dehorning has been tried with various levels of success in India, Namibia, and elsewhere. See for example http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/132/1328569146.pdf http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/132/1328569146..... Another viable idea would be to genetically edit the horns out.