5 ms·

Just to play devil's advocate; If there was a total ban, then it would go underground and nobody can really watch what's happening with the ivory trade. There i

by jbob2000 10y ago

Just to play devil's advocate; If there was a total ban, then it would go underground and nobody can really watch what's happening with the ivory trade. There is already A LOT of ivory out there, it's not like it goes bad or anything, so you'd be forcing estates to go underground or destroy it if it weren't regulated. I think it's a complex situation, not as simple as saying "elephants died, therefore bad".

adamnemecek 10y ago
This is silly. By allowing trade, you are sustaining a market for it. Furthermore, a legal market would be a cover for the illegal market.
- duaneb 10y ago
  Yes, the only reason why child pornography is still around is we haven't bothered to make it completely illegal yet.
  - adamnemecek 10y ago
    I mean, yeah, you will never get completely rid of anything. Yet I think that child pornography is less common in society than illegal ivory (ever been to China town in SF and NYC?)
    - duaneb 10y ago
      > Yet I think that child pornography is less common in society than illegal ivory This could just as easily be from social stigma than from laws. I can't think of anything more socially repulsive. The point is, restricting legality is not necessarily the best way to address a problem—it is just the easy way for people to throw money at a problem.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  But the market sustains based primarily on demand, not legality.
  - adamnemecek 10y ago
    There isn't a black market for everything. E.g. how big is the black market for Kinder Surprise eggs in the US? How big is the market for leaded gasoline?
    - berberous 10y ago
      On Kinder eggs: https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20110425/upper-east-side/federal-officials-raid-manhattan-stores-selling-kinder-eggs https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20110425/upper-east-side/fe...
    - cloverich 10y ago
      What is the advantage of me buying leaded vs unleaded gasoline? Is there a suitable alternative for Ivory? (I know basically nothing about it).
      - dpark 10y ago
        > What is the advantage of me buying leaded vs unleaded gasoline? Leaded gasoline has increased fuel efficiency, due to the higher effective octane rating. > Is there a suitable alternative for Ivory? (I know basically nothing about it). There's no application where ivory is required. It's purely decorative. Anywhere that you "need" ivory, you could use plastic. In most cases, you could probably also use painted/stained wood or a number of other materials.
- jbob2000 10y ago
  There will always be a market for it, regardless if it is "allowed" or not. It needs to be regulated to prevent more ivory from entering the market, and maybe we can tax the hell out of the rich assholes buying it and use that tax money to fund anti-poaching measures. As well, part of the draw of ivory is that it is illegal. "I have something you can't even legally buy! 3 people died getting me this!". There is something about the illegality of it that draws people to it, it's a "forbidden fruit". By legalizing the trade, you remove this "benefit" of ivory ownership. Now the ivory owner has no cool stories to tell about his purchase, he's just a rich prick who bought it from some dealer, like you might buy a car.
  - adamnemecek 10y ago
    It's all about the size of the market. An illegal market will be smaller than a legal market. Also it's impossible to setup a legal market because there is no way of distinguishing 'legal' ivory from 'illegal' ivory.
- stephengillie 10y ago
  The market for cannabis was so large that it sustained a push for legality. Alcohol's market lost momentum but never disappeared.
- throwaway420 10y ago
  This is a fantasy. Making ivory trade illegal today in every country in the world wouldn't suddenly make the demand go away. It only drives the price up and makes crime and violence more likely as the rewards are even higher. Take the market for all kinds of drugs as an easy example. Making it illegal is very short-sighted: it doesn't suddenly make drugs disappear from society, it just makes it more expensive and this incentivizes people to crime to protect their drug business. If it was legal, drug crime would dry up overnight, like it did when Alcohol prohibition ended. You don't see the brewing company that makes Miller lite take out a hit on Yuengling Lager nowadays, do you? If you want to preserve these animals, legal markets for them should be strongly encouraged. Think of solutions that may be developed as far as harvesting ivory that wouldn't kill the animals if it was legal. Maybe private farming that sustains these populations in some way would be developed. Chickens that lay eggs aren't in danger of going extinct anytime soon because they're being preserved because they make people money. Just having a market for a good isn't a bad thing. Just driving it underground harder and harder encourages poor and desperate people to risk everything for a massive payday.
  - adamnemecek 10y ago
    > It only drives the price up and makes crime and violence more likely as the rewards are even higher. What's the black market price for Kinder Surprise eggs, an item that's illegal in the US. Comparing this with drugs is not the same. No one "needs" ivory the same way they "need" heroin. > Making it illegal is very short-sighted: Why is it that poaching skyrockets whenever the restrictions are relaxed? > Think of solutions that may be developed as far as harvesting ivory that wouldn't kill the animals if it was legal. How does that stop poaching? > Maybe private farming that sustains these populations in some way would be developed. Do you know much about elephants? Do you know much about elephant husbandry? Can you talk a bit more about these proposals and the possible problems?
    - soyiuz 10y ago
      > What's the black market price for Kinder Surprise eggs, an item that's illegal in the US. Kinder eggs are not a good analogy. The market demand is not really for "Kinder eggs" it is for "kid's chocolate." The segment has many alternatives. If all chocolate was banned (or difficult to source as it was in the Soviet Union) we would indeed see a thriving black market (as it was in SU).
cylinder 10y ago
More like it would take some power / authority away from some technocrats in EU.
Ma8ee 10y ago
That is why they tried to allow some legal trade. This has so far spelled disaster for the elephants and it is right now very urgent to ban all trade again. Apparently there isn't enough ivory out there. If there was the price would go down and no one would hunt elephants.
draw_down 10y ago
Is there inherent value in playing devils advocate?
- cloverich 10y ago
  I would argue if there is value in discourse in general, then there is value in playing devil's advocate. ? Devil's advocate is simply a request for discourse, while highlighting the point of it is discourse as such (rather than a stake in the ground / trying to convince people otherwise). IMO, it raises all participants ability to understand both side of arguments, however loathsome either may be.
- klagermkii 10y ago
  I think it serves the same value as a falsifiability test. It helps find flaws in otherwise nice sounding or convenient theories.
jobigoud 10y ago
It's always hard to say whether complete prohibition decrease usage or encourage an uncontrolled black market… A possible parallel is that in France the trade of wolf fur is forbidden. There are still a few sellers per month on our equivalent of Craig's list and ebay, but they quickly get taken down by 'vigilantes' reporting them to the website. Not sure about the black market running completely outside of the Internet.
kbenson 10y ago
On the other hand, once you have a market for legal ivory trade, you'll have illegal ivory trying to pass as legal ivory, and that may increase the ability of poachers to move their product. Additionally, since it's very scarce, you might see a very large price increase (because of increased demand due to no risk of law enforcement and less stigma), and if that price increases to more than the prior black market prices, that will incentivize more poachers. Markets are inherently complex beasts. Trying to tweak a market for desired behavior is hard enough. Creating a new market and thinking we understand all the consequences and how it will play out when it's this important is insane.

adamnemecek 10y ago

This is silly. By allowing trade, you are sustaining a market for it. Furthermore, a legal market would be a cover for the illegal market.

duaneb 10y ago
Yes, the only reason why child pornography is still around is we haven't bothered to make it completely illegal yet.
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  I mean, yeah, you will never get completely rid of anything. Yet I think that child pornography is less common in society than illegal ivory (ever been to China town in SF and NYC?)
  - duaneb 10y ago
    > Yet I think that child pornography is less common in society than illegal ivory This could just as easily be from social stigma than from laws. I can't think of anything more socially repulsive. The point is, restricting legality is not necessarily the best way to address a problem—it is just the easy way for people to throw money at a problem.
wyldfire 10y ago
But the market sustains based primarily on demand, not legality.
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  There isn't a black market for everything. E.g. how big is the black market for Kinder Surprise eggs in the US? How big is the market for leaded gasoline?
  - berberous 10y ago
    On Kinder eggs: https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20110425/upper-east-side/federal-officials-raid-manhattan-stores-selling-kinder-eggs https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20110425/upper-east-side/fe...
  - cloverich 10y ago
    What is the advantage of me buying leaded vs unleaded gasoline? Is there a suitable alternative for Ivory? (I know basically nothing about it).
    - dpark 10y ago
      > What is the advantage of me buying leaded vs unleaded gasoline? Leaded gasoline has increased fuel efficiency, due to the higher effective octane rating. > Is there a suitable alternative for Ivory? (I know basically nothing about it). There's no application where ivory is required. It's purely decorative. Anywhere that you "need" ivory, you could use plastic. In most cases, you could probably also use painted/stained wood or a number of other materials.
jbob2000 10y ago
There will always be a market for it, regardless if it is "allowed" or not. It needs to be regulated to prevent more ivory from entering the market, and maybe we can tax the hell out of the rich assholes buying it and use that tax money to fund anti-poaching measures. As well, part of the draw of ivory is that it is illegal. "I have something you can't even legally buy! 3 people died getting me this!". There is something about the illegality of it that draws people to it, it's a "forbidden fruit". By legalizing the trade, you remove this "benefit" of ivory ownership. Now the ivory owner has no cool stories to tell about his purchase, he's just a rich prick who bought it from some dealer, like you might buy a car.
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  It's all about the size of the market. An illegal market will be smaller than a legal market. Also it's impossible to setup a legal market because there is no way of distinguishing 'legal' ivory from 'illegal' ivory.
stephengillie 10y ago
The market for cannabis was so large that it sustained a push for legality. Alcohol's market lost momentum but never disappeared.
throwaway420 10y ago
This is a fantasy. Making ivory trade illegal today in every country in the world wouldn't suddenly make the demand go away. It only drives the price up and makes crime and violence more likely as the rewards are even higher. Take the market for all kinds of drugs as an easy example. Making it illegal is very short-sighted: it doesn't suddenly make drugs disappear from society, it just makes it more expensive and this incentivizes people to crime to protect their drug business. If it was legal, drug crime would dry up overnight, like it did when Alcohol prohibition ended. You don't see the brewing company that makes Miller lite take out a hit on Yuengling Lager nowadays, do you? If you want to preserve these animals, legal markets for them should be strongly encouraged. Think of solutions that may be developed as far as harvesting ivory that wouldn't kill the animals if it was legal. Maybe private farming that sustains these populations in some way would be developed. Chickens that lay eggs aren't in danger of going extinct anytime soon because they're being preserved because they make people money. Just having a market for a good isn't a bad thing. Just driving it underground harder and harder encourages poor and desperate people to risk everything for a massive payday.
- adamnemecek 10y ago
  > It only drives the price up and makes crime and violence more likely as the rewards are even higher. What's the black market price for Kinder Surprise eggs, an item that's illegal in the US. Comparing this with drugs is not the same. No one "needs" ivory the same way they "need" heroin. > Making it illegal is very short-sighted: Why is it that poaching skyrockets whenever the restrictions are relaxed? > Think of solutions that may be developed as far as harvesting ivory that wouldn't kill the animals if it was legal. How does that stop poaching? > Maybe private farming that sustains these populations in some way would be developed. Do you know much about elephants? Do you know much about elephant husbandry? Can you talk a bit more about these proposals and the possible problems?
  - soyiuz 10y ago
    > What's the black market price for Kinder Surprise eggs, an item that's illegal in the US. Kinder eggs are not a good analogy. The market demand is not really for "Kinder eggs" it is for "kid's chocolate." The segment has many alternatives. If all chocolate was banned (or difficult to source as it was in the Soviet Union) we would indeed see a thriving black market (as it was in SU).

cylinder 10y ago

More like it would take some power / authority away from some technocrats in EU.

Ma8ee 10y ago

That is why they tried to allow some legal trade. This has so far spelled disaster for the elephants and it is right now very urgent to ban all trade again. Apparently there isn't enough ivory out there. If there was the price would go down and no one would hunt elephants.

draw_down 10y ago

Is there inherent value in playing devils advocate?

cloverich 10y ago
I would argue if there is value in discourse in general, then there is value in playing devil's advocate. ? Devil's advocate is simply a request for discourse, while highlighting the point of it is discourse as such (rather than a stake in the ground / trying to convince people otherwise). IMO, it raises all participants ability to understand both side of arguments, however loathsome either may be.
klagermkii 10y ago
I think it serves the same value as a falsifiability test. It helps find flaws in otherwise nice sounding or convenient theories.

jobigoud 10y ago

It's always hard to say whether complete prohibition decrease usage or encourage an uncontrolled black market… A possible parallel is that in France the trade of wolf fur is forbidden. There are still a few sellers per month on our equivalent of Craig's list and ebay, but they quickly get taken down by 'vigilantes' reporting them to the website. Not sure about the black market running completely outside of the Internet.

kbenson 10y ago

On the other hand, once you have a market for legal ivory trade, you'll have illegal ivory trying to pass as legal ivory, and that may increase the ability of poachers to move their product. Additionally, since it's very scarce, you might see a very large price increase (because of increased demand due to no risk of law enforcement and less stigma), and if that price increases to more than the prior black market prices, that will incentivize more poachers. Markets are inherently complex beasts. Trying to tweak a market for desired behavior is hard enough. Creating a new market and thinking we understand all the consequences and how it will play out when it's this important is insane.